Miguel Sanchez 0:00

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the First Gen 1 0 1 Podcast. Today I am very fortunate to have Hasmik Vardanyan. Hasmik. Thank you for being here today.

Hasmik Vardanyan 0:12

Of course, thank you. It's my pleasure to be here.

Miguel Sanchez 0:15

Great. So Hasmik and I met. When she was a student at the Elisabeth Haub School of Law, most people know as PACE Law and she was a legal intern at John Jay Legal Services and John Jay. Legal Services is home to Paces legal clinics. Where students practice law under the supervision of an attorney, Hasmik, going back to those days as a legal intern, now you're a business owner? Yes. What do you remember most about being a legal intern at John Jay Legal Services.

Hasmik Vardanyan 0:49

I do have some amazing memories from there and, looking at broadly now, some of those, some of the experiences that I took were so amazing. The exposure that I would get being an intern, that at that time I think I did not really realize how important it is, how great it is. So when I look back, I did internship, I did externship at the clinics, and. That gave me some fundamental skills that I carried to the actual attorney job and then even to the being a business owner. But there are some highlights clearly, having my child come with me to work and there is some stories that I still remember chit-chatting with you and asking some random questions because I was so clueless about law school. I think I was the first one among my community or the people that I used to hang out. I still, I still hang out, but that I went to law school, so I remember I would pop into your office sometimes and ask some questions, what do I do with my life? And then you would just directly try this one. I was like, okay. But I'll say that having that opportunity to be a student attorney, actually going and seeing a courtroom and talking there, it's something maybe students don't. Think how important it's how great it is. When I was a DA after law school and after a few years, not a few, maybe a year or two, we had the COVID and I remember speaking with an attorney and he was a DA and he said, I've been here for about six months. I didn't, I don't know where, what the courtroom. And I was like, what? Do you know what is a courtroom? You went to through whole law school yard, a DA and during the COVID, which, everything was closed. But I am lucky, I always say having. The people around me who guided me and support me try this, try that. I had my professor from John Jay push me to do a second chair trial with him. When I was a one L at that time, I was like, this is cool. And now when I look back I'm like, that was huge. So some great memories from the clinic.

Miguel Sanchez 2:44

You own your own firm. But before we get into that, let's take it back just a few more. Years prior, when did you decide to become a lawyer?

Hasmik Vardanyan 2:55

I was not a, I'm not a typical person who can say, oh, I've been arguing since I was five years old, and my fam family said, you will be great attorney. I came to USA when I was 17 years old after high school, so everything was a bit new for me. I was lucky enough to get a job in a law firm where I would do scanning only. So that was a bit of an exposure. We're like, okay, this is an attorney, this is what they do. But I was slightly lost. I didn't think that law school is something I would pursue. It was later on in my journey in school at John J. College of Criminal Justice, where I did my bachelor's. I started community college and I transferred to John J. And I was speaking with a professor and I said, I work in this law firm and I think I would love to be a lawyer, but I know I cannot. I'm thinking maybe ESL professor, ESL teacher. And she looked at me, she said, my Margaret, I think that's the last name of the professor. And she said, why do you think you can't? And I said I was not born here. English is my, I think third language at this point. Some of the things that I read I don't even understand. And she gave me so much confidence within 30 minutes that I walked out of that. Room conference and I said, okay, I'm going to law school. So what helped me, what triggered, or where the interest is stemming from. I had to navigate through certain things on my own as a person who came later on enrolling in college, understanding how the system works, applying to certain things and being denied, then you have to go back and, try to find that person who made the decision, see if they can change the decision. These are things that I think help me understand how I can help others. I learned how to, I can enroll in Kingsburg Community College. I had three other of my friends enrolled there, even though they were like, I don't know if I wanna go to college. I was like, I found a way to do it online. We're all going to college. So these are things that I was like, I can't do that. And even better things if I have that education. So that's what triggered me to look into the law school. And then being a law firm, being in the law firm and working as a paralegal gave me the skills later on to start doing on my own, handling cases on my own.

Miguel Sanchez 4:56

We know from what you shared that you were a assistant district attorney at the Bronx DA's office, and I know you worked there for a few years. And today we're gonna focus on the business of owning a law firm. There are many first generation students who are thinking about going to law school and considering having their own firm in the future. I wanna focus on the business of owning a law firm.'cause I think that's, that's something that students should really think about before they decide to do it, because as you're gonna share with us, that can be different than actually practicing law. So tell me about the Vardanyan Law Group.

Hasmik Vardanyan 5:37

Yeah. So when I started law school, I had in my mind that one day I do want to open my firm. Just again, coming from working in a firm and having that experience that I can help others it fascinated with me. Down the road, in my heart I knew, but when I was in days in the school actually from, while I was a law student, I did explore different areas I went to DA's office. I was an ADA, I had a amazing courtroom experience. Then actually I went to mid-size insurance defense firm for about a year, and I did insurance defense work. And then one day when I was sitting in I said what makes you happy? Hasmik, because I was working many hours. I, at the time, I already had my second baby and. I always said, if, I studied so much, I, paid so much, I should be doing something that I truly enjoy to justify all the struggles, all the challenges that I had to go through. And I was sitting down with a friend and I said, actually, I should be opening my firm. This is, that's why I went to law school. And she said, then just do it. And I just did it. And that's one thing that we, a lot of people fail to do certain things because they just don't do it. And it just, it's baby steps, little steps, but then with the time it compounds and you achieve what you wanted to achieve. So walking into law school, I knew I wanted to open my firm. I did reroute and I gained amazing experience and I think that helped me to be a good attorney as a business owner. I also. Watched when I was working as an intern, I always watched as much as I could the business side of it. You know what they do when the clients call, how they do the intake, how they assign the task, who does what. So I was curious about that perspective, knowing that one day I might open. So when I did open mind, I tried to implement everything that I learned. And that's why sometimes I find myself doing exactly the same thing that the other attorney would do in the firm, just because that's what I've seen and I just copy it in my head somewhere. So anyone who wants to open their firm I would say there are certain things that I learned based on my journey. For example, you should have a good system, you should write down. Your workflows if you bring someone on onboard the onboarding, right? So there's a lot of things that I learned based on mistakes or based on my experience, but if you are a person, whoever's listening to us and you want to do something, can be opening a law firm, going to law school, starting a podcast, you just have to one day wake up and force yourself to do one thing out of that large project. That's how I lived my entire, going to law school to. Getting all the credits just show up every day. And you, everything that you do has to take you one step closer to the end goal.

Miguel Sanchez 8:17

I wanna unpack some of the things you mentioned especially because when we talk to prospective law students, the law often ask, how can the law school or just not just pace, but any law school helped me in my path towards opening my firm. And so one of the things that we generally advise is. Just as you mentioned, get an internship where you want to learn the operations of running a law firm. Just like you said, how do they handle intakes? How do how's hr? How do you train someone? One of the things that we used to tell students at the clinic was, I know that what you're doing today might seem very routine or like unnecessary. Like you may not see yourself doing this as a lawyer. When you were doing mundane tasks, like copies that you might remember doing some of those and clinic task things, so to speak. But when you have to then train somebody or have a workflow, you have to really understand how it works so that you can teach somebody how to do it, especially since it's gonna be very hard for you to do everything on your own. Especially if you wanna scale your business, you're gonna need to build your team. And speaking on those tasks. When you started your firm, what are some of the operational tasks that take more time than you expected?

Hasmik Vardanyan 9:36

Very good question, because I had the fear when I was going, when I opened my firm and I said at the end of the day, this is a business. You are not a sale person. You know how to handle the phone calls, you know that someone calls. You have to pick up the phone like. Certain tasks, but at the end of the day, I don't have an MBA and I'm a very, I have always thought, I'm not a business person. I don't know how to sell. That's not mine. One thing that I came to learn is that it's part of it, you have to learn, but one key, if I can give share with any other attorney who wants to open a firm, is that when I started a law firm in the beginning, I really went to every consultation with the curiosity. How can I help you? So I would always tell them, this is what I can do for you. This is how I can help you. I have the skills, and then at the end then I will say, but this is how much it will cost you. And clearly when you're new, your rate might be, less than what others are charging. That could be something that the client is looking at. But also, by the time I got to that point, we identified the issue. We identified how I can help them and that they need to help. So they were ready to hire me and I realized that what you are looking at as far as the sale portion, because it's a business, at the end of the day, you are looking at that portion from that perspective. The conversion rate, like the people who hire is higher because they understand you can help them, you care. And even today, when I have to delegate certain things to team members, I always tell them, please do not. When someone calls you and they tell you, I have a, I need legal help. Do not start with the money. No one. We all know it's part of it, but that person needs help and you're telling them. Pay me this much or I'm not going to help you. That's not how try to bring in clients. So that's one thing that I learned and helped me, that even though I'm not a business person, I don't know how to sell, if I'm looking, if I'm approaching the problem. From that perspective, it helped me to scale and then learn, other basics of the sales system as far as the operations. It takes so much time. It does take a lot of time. Some days I complain that I spent the whole week did not even do one legal work and complain they complained about it a lot. That's why having the system and workflows from the beginning is so important. Then you can have a team member comment and you can just delegate it to them. But the business side of it, when you bring, you have to first market to bring in a client. Then when the client comes and you have to have someone ready to handle the client. The best way to deliver the result. And in the beginning as a business owner, you will wear those hat like I would market. I would speak to the client, I would sign the client, then I would do the work. We do have a system now that implements AI. It's very automated. I can click on, something and it automatically sends a welcome message to the persons. And I spent hours and a lot of money to peel that. So I do say that if you're a business owner today, you might, you should look into different ways to automate your system, that's the future, or implement AI in certain places. That saves a lot of time. And the second thing would be try to write down everything you do. For example you have to. Send this message, like just type on a work Word document and save it. Then you just give that to the other person. I wish I would, did sooner as far as the writing down the, this is a step one, step two, I did. Now I'm going back and doing, fixing those things. But as far as their system, I did. From the first day I wanted to create system that I don't have to be part in it. It can't work. Even though I'm out, speaking with you or I do want to go big conferences to learn. If I want to do that, then I would, I should have a system that can run without me. So we did create that. But as a business owner, you cannot run away from it. When you, everything glas on your shoulders. If something goes wrong, it's on you. If something goes right, it's. Of the team. I always look at that way. So you have to, if you don't enjoy those things, I don't think that you should be a business owner, I would say, because there is no way to get rid of it completely.

Miguel Sanchez 13:32

presenting yourself as a solution and. It's obvious that people, or not obvious, but most people call attorneys when they have a problem. Very rarely do you call an attorney because you wanna have coffee for the sake of it. Most of us call an attorney, right? Barely. but you're presenting yourself as a solution. it is already a form of. marketing, because you are a solution to their problems. And if you can prove yourself that. You are solving their problem. I think people would be more than happy to pay you because they just want the problem solved, number one. Number two doing all these tasks and making, having these notes It's something that we all have to do, and it reminds me of for business owners, and it reminds me of what someone shared with me a few years ago, when you're a business owner a solo practitioner. It is like playing tennis. You have to do everything. You have to run for the ball, you have to hit the racket, you have to keep your eyes on different parts, but then eventually you want to be more like a football coach where you are more overseeing the big picture and working with the players, which it sounds like you're doing already, not only by. Systemizing your operation, but also implementing AI, which I think it's a really help for people who are just beginning their law firms to really use the tools around. So on that note of putting these systems in place, how do you. How do you balance the practicing law? Because I know you mentioned there are days that you don't necessarily practice law. But how do you know, okay, this is where I really need to start focusing on my law work and putting aside the operations.

Hasmik Vardanyan 15:12

In the beginning, I would just go as I, I would do as I go. And then there was some time that I said, being a business owner a good team member, you also want to give others to be able to solve the problems on their own. So I said, okay, one day, at some point if you have a question, you should be able to look into certain places and find those answers, which is going to give me time to. To focus on other areas of the practice, which is actually practicing the law, doing the legal work. So I started a system, which I should be a bit more strict following that, but I would block some days. So I would say, okay, Monday and Wednesday is blocked. No clients, no phone calls, no one can talk to me. I will sit down and I'm. It's hard for me to focus some days, so I really have to be in a quiet place. I cannot have my children around me. I have to make coffee. Everything have to be ready so I can just sit and get the work done. Especially with legal stuff, when you have to write a motion it, it's, it takes hours. You have to read different things, if I have to get out in every five minutes, I would literally forget what I read. It's bad, but it is what it is. So I would just time management. It would all come to time management. I would block, and I still do, I block certain days, Mondays and one Wednesdays, unless it's emergency, it's only legal work. So I will not have any consultations, phone calls. And some weeks were good with it, some weeks were not. Some weeks were not. Sometimes they ask me to open a day because we have something, a client who cannot do another day. And I would do that. I would also say that just now to sugar sugarcoat and everything, I open my firm the next day I hired my team and now we're doing these amazing things. If you are, because I had some people reach out to me and say, ask me. I want to do this. And I will always in the beginning say, go it. I will help you with everything. Open it. I will register your LCI will give you all my tools. But with some time, I realize there are some days it's really hard. So you have to enjoy that journey. If you are only about the product, like when you see that, you have to see the result, it will be really hard for you to be a business owner and an attorney because you have to enjoy the journey. Some days are tough, some days you have to make very hard decisions for the sake of the business. And it's part of it. And if you enjoy that process, if you're in for the journey, it's manageable. But if there, if not, then it's hard because you have to really do time management block your days, and then you have to have some days. Where do you do marketing? Get out, talk to people and trade the team. So I love it. I enjoy it, but there are some days that I'm like. Why did I even do this?

Miguel Sanchez 17:45

You hear that, when you talk to business owners, I think they all say that, they start like, why did I do this? But you mentioned there are rewards and you have to also learn to say no and sometimes, because otherwise you won't be enjoying your your journey. Something you said that caught my attention, you need to have those days where you're focused, where you have even your coffee in a certain place or in a certain way. I know friends who own other companies who tell me that they eat the same thing every day. They eat oatmeal every day because they know that it takes a minute to put it in the microwave, and it's one less thing they have to do is they cut the to-dos. If you are talking to a student right now Who say, call you and say, Hasmik. I'm really passionate about starting my own law firm. I think I got a good grasp of this area of law and I know I think I can get clients and really make a difference. What would you advise a student what they should be looking at, like more than just the area of law that they're working in. The business side, what they should be looking out for, what kind of questions they should be asking.

Hasmik Vardanyan 18:49

I think I. Even when you're in law school and you want to practice criminal or you want to be a criminal attorney, let's put aside for a second of being a business owner, but any, anything that you want to work, I think you have to reach out to your mentor or your professor or the person who's actually doing that and ask what your day to day activities look like. Do you really, dress up and go to court every day with arguments? None, no. Half of the day is sending emails, some legal, arguments fixing the broken printer machine that you have to see what their day looks like. So I would say if you're a law student and you want to practice in certain area of the law, reach out to an attorney who does that and ask them, what's your day-to-day activities look like? Nine to five, just walk me through. If you want to start a business, I, my. Best exposure was that I was in a law firm doing similar work and I was there from being a scanning person up until a trial a paralegal. So I've seen everything and I try to work on everything to get an idea. But if you cannot do that, then I would say you have to do a bit of homework. Understand where this person is getting the clients, where they're coming from. Once, okay. I'm able to, I open my office, I registered, I got my first client. How do I, what do I do next? What do I provide? The first thing, the law, the they have to look at, is that what I can solve for that person? At the end of the day, you have to provide a value and. How I'm going to solve it? Do I have the tools? Do I have to reach out a few attorneys and say, Hey, I want to do this case. Can you mentor, can you oversee my work? Because if you're gonna provide someone a service, you want to make sure that service is accurate, you do not open yourself to any more practice. So then secure client. Make sure you have someone to reach out in the beginning for a quick question. Can you review and make sure I'm doing this the right way? Have some type of system. Doesn't have to be, create Google Workspace, you everything. You have to have a paper trail sign. The client. The client called the client, provided that in the beginning. You think I'll remember at some point you do not remember. And it's really hard to say this, but at the end of the day, I came to learn. My first enemy is that client. When you do so many amazing things, thank you, Hassman, you do one thing or you refuse to take one case for them because you know already them, you're the worst person. So you always want to protect yourself and you know it is what it is in this world. So you wanna have a paper trail, spoke with the client, clients at a, B, C. Prepare these sent everything. If you sent out, have to be, again, paper, certified mail so you have a proof of what you did. If you want to open immigration law firm or a personal injury law firm, you have to know how to bring a client, learn the skills, take some CLEs, go work with someone as an intern, just to know what they do every day. Have someone you can reach out for quick questions if you know whenever you're hesitating, if you're doing the right thing or not. Don't be scared to charge money. I did so much pro bono work in the first years. At some point I had one of my team members call me and she said, if you sign up another pro bono case, we're all quitting. you have to charge, you have to value your time. If you don't value your time, they're not gonna value your time. That's one thing that I came to learn.

Miguel Sanchez 21:58

Good advice.

Hasmik Vardanyan 21:59

And. Something that I'm working on. Stay in contact. If you have one client, you did something, they're happy. Maintain the contact. It's something I always struggled with. All my networking relationships, I have to fix that. It's really hard for me and I'm very bad with that, that, but if you can maintain the contact, just send them once in a blue one. Hey, how are you checking in? That's how you can open your network, generate more clients and just basic communication. That so that I, I would say opening a business model one would be that.

Miguel Sanchez 22:34

No that's, there's a lot to to unpack there. And I just I thought it was funny that, some, somebody in your team had to basically force you to stop or maybe slow down a little bit. But another thing that you mentioned, I think is really important for people to understand is that. If you don't value your time, they're not gonna value you. That's just how we are wired. So that, I think that was really really key. Then another thing is the network. We talked about this in other episodes, about how important is to maintain your network. So developing the system to, especially nowadays when it's just a little bit easier with AI, then maybe you can, create, genuine messages, but maybe. Systemize it so that you can send them periodically. really important to maintain your network. So as we come to the, to, to the end, what have you learned about yourself? And I know you've mentioned a few things, but what have you learned about yourself in this journey?

Hasmik Vardanyan 23:31

Okay. I came to learn that I have always been like this in a way that if I wanted something truly in my mind, I will show up for that. I did it for the law school. I started when my son was newborn, and I felt so awkward the first, the whole year I felt like a teen mom being school. It was, but I know it just deeply in me like I have to do this. So it is the same thing that I came to learn. Now, there are certain projects that I want to start and then I'm like. I don't need to. And then it's you can't do it has we just look back. So I came to learn that if I really want it, I'll show up and I will do it. I'm not a complainer, I also learned that I have to respect my time and value my time. It really came to me. I'm, I'll be honest yours. Some point I was practicing, I would put my children picture my kids' picture in front of me, and I would say, if someone calls me and you say, can you do this? You say no because you can spend the time with your kids. I had to visualize it because. You. I do want to help a lot of people. Sometimes I get mad, some people do not appreciate. Some people appreciate, but I came to learn. Very important thing when you do a project, a service for someone for absolutely free and. You would expect them to be so grateful, right? Because then you do the same thing for someone you charge. It's always the person you that you charge are, they're more grateful. They're more happy. And the person you did for free, they expect, it's so that's why even if something small I have to charge. That's how I value my time and that's how I teach them. They have to mile value my time. It was a hard lesson. I learned that the running a business is hard. Some days you have to make decisions that you do not want to. In your heart, you think that's not the right on moral level, but business wise you have to make it. And being able to make that decision, stick to it and continue, I, it takes, it takes a character to do that. So I, I came to learn that I can do that sometimes because I do want the business to succeed. Overall I do, we staying in touch with people, we always say in Armenia, they would always say, oh, you have to know people. You have to have money, or you have to know people. And then when I came here and I said, it's similar, you have to have a network. If you have someone who can actually, and I'm not saying that you don't have any merits, they are going and advocate for you. But if you do have the merits and you have someone who can advocate for you, it always helps. Or if someone can connect you with someone else, it helps so much as a first gen business owner. To wrap it up, network will be a key. I went to law school. I didn't have anyone that I could ask simple questions. And sometimes you are shy, you don't wanna ask a lot of questions, you don't wanna sound, clueless. You, you find I was a very solo learner, like I learned best when I was alone, so I was not in a group setting. And that also, when you're in group setting, then you stay connected to them. You again, comes back to the network as a first gen. That's one thing you want to do. You always want to connect different people because we don't have the resources. We don't have, a family law firm who can just connect me to the someone that I, I need resources. And I had a few professors in my career, like Professor Barry that I saw sometimes. Once every in Blue Moon I texted. I said, just to say thank you for everything you did for. Professor Michael Croci from John Jay. I, he was amazing. I had, and I can count my fingers, I have Catalina Ragger from Western Studio's office. And if you look all of these people. They play, get, played the role of having the family resource, with some advice, connections or just putting, helping you to get on the right direction. Even the last firm that I worked, Michelle Rio, she was the partner and I still reach out to her because she's the mom with two kids. And I would always look at her and say, how is she, how she does that? And when I opened my firm. Maybe six months in, I texted her and I said, Michelle, no, I understand why you would disappear for quite a period of time. And then she would come back let's do this, because that's what I do. Some days I just have to disappear, not talk to anyone. Then I'll come back and get work done. So if you're first gen, try to work on that. It's really it makes a difference.

Miguel Sanchez 27:39

Hami, I thank you very much for taking time from your very busy work life to, to do this episode with us. There's so much to learn from this. I know that there are many who are going to re-listen or this episode for a lot of the information you shared. I'm gonna leave the contact information and the social media handles of your firm in this episode. But just to close, if anyone wants to reach out to you for your services, how can they best contact you? I.

Hasmik Vardanyan 28:08

Thank you, Miguel. They can call for the for the firm services. They can call 2 0 1 6 7 8 1 8 0 6. But any student who is listening and needs any advice, any tips, tricks, they can, I will share my email with you. I'm more than happy to help them. They can email me any questions. And I'm open to provide anything that I know and I don't know a lot, but I know some to any student or any future business owner.

Miguel Sanchez 28:35

Thank you very much for being here today.