Miguel Sanchez : 0:00

Welcome to the First Gen 1 0 1 podcast. Today I am very excited to have Tyler Rutherford, who's going to share his experience as a first gen lawyer. Welcome Tyler.

Tyler Rutherford: 0:12

Thank you for having me, Miguel. It's great to be here.

Miguel Sanchez : 0:16

Many of you know that I work at Pace Law and we've had other PACE Law alums here on the podcast, and Tyler is himself a, an alum of that law school and I've seen him grow professionally and I'm happy he's doing great. And I'm so fortunate that as we were just saying before we started, how this has been a great way to connect with people and to see how we are doing. And Tyler has shared about his family. His work and his recent accomplishment. So I'm glad that you're doing really well, Tyler.

Tyler Rutherford: 0:48

Thank you. Thank you. It's certainly been a busy year, but it's great to be here and I'm glad to hear that you're doing well too. And looking forward to sharing any insights I have with everyone out there that's going through, university and law school for the first time themselves.

Miguel Sanchez : 1:03

Going to law school is a life changing decision. It's not only the challenges of law school, but the financial commitment for many, like yourself, moved from a different state, from a different region. So I know that what you're gonna share with us, Tyler, is gonna be really important and before we go into the law school experience and now as an attorney, how was your life before you decided to go to law school?

Tyler Rutherford: 1:31

I grew up in a small town, about 45 minutes outside of Austin, and I was homeschooled most of my, younger education years and ended up going to a private school. My junior year and senior of high school and was fortunate enough to attend Baylor University for my undergrad, but it was completely different than what my life is now. I grew up with cows and chickens and not able to see any neighbors. It was just trees and the other neighbors all around me. I don't see cows unless I drive an hour outside of the city. And so it was completely different than what it is now. And sometimes I look back on it and I miss that slower paced life. But then others I'm just beyond grateful for where I am now and what I've been able to achieve. And for that I, I don't think I would change anything that's got me here.

Miguel Sanchez : 2:26

where exactly was this.

Tyler Rutherford: 2:28

Outside of Austin. So it was Marble Falls in in the Hill country for people that are from Texas or know of it. And it was about 45 minutes. Back then. Now there's a lot more traffic'cause New Yorkers and Californians are moving in. And so now I think it probably would take about an hour and 15, but it's about. About 40 miles outside of Austin. And it's just a small town, about 10,000 people. It's, you're almost guaranteed to run into someone, at the grocery store every single time I go back to visit family,'cause my parents still live out there. And so every single time I go back to visit. And we go to one of the local coffee shops. I don't think there's been a single time that I've gone in there and have not seen someone that I know, and they're immediately like, oh how have you been doing and al's life? Do you still like New York? Or Are you ready to come back south? And it's it's just completely different.

Miguel Sanchez : 3:25

I'm sure the weather, it's warmer here. As of this recording, it's about what 30 degrees feels like 15, and I'm sure in tech in Texas at least 10 degrees higher. I want to assume.

Tyler Rutherford: 3:38

Yes the weather is completely different. It, we joke that there's two summers in Texas, so there's not really four seasons. You have two summers, about three weeks of fall, two weeks of winter, and that's. Your seasons. So up here it's, we actually have four seasons. I'm sitting in a conference room right now and out to my left the window and there's snow on the ground. I can count on maybe one hand the amount of times I saw some form of snow or winter precipitation growing up in Texas. It. Rarely happens. And so it's, it took a bit to get used to with the snow up here, I am still not a fan, but I'm not nearly as traumatized by it when I first moved up here.

Miguel Sanchez : 4:23

At what point did you decide you wanted to be a lawyer?

Tyler Rutherford: 4:26

So I always appreciated law and politics. As a young kid, I would sit in the back with a little notepad and I would write my dad tickets. I'd be like, oh, you're, we're in a 70 mile per hour zone. You're going 76. I would keep a little journal and writing tickets and but going into undergrad, I actually went in as a biochemistry, pre-med major. I have a lot of eye issues in that. Impacting me and I wanted to be a retina surgeon. However the first semester of bio, I realized that was not possible for me due to the fact that I could not make out what was in my eye and what was on the slides and the microscopes because I have floaters in my eyes. And so that's when I realized, okay, I have to pivot and I knew I wanted to go to school after I finished undergrad. I wanted that post undergrad education, and I, like I said, always had been fascinated with politics and the law. And I was like, okay, law school then, like that it, it didn't really, there wasn't much of a. Of a hesitation there. I took a step back and okay, law school. And I met with my pre-law advisor at Baylor and switched my major to political science and then off with the races at that point I jumped into student government. I got plugged in with. Attorneys in Clinton County, which is where Baylor sits. I, I got plugged in with attorneys back home in Burnett County, which is where more falls. And I interned every summer I could at my local prosecutor's office. And I attended local bar events because the Highland Lakes Bar Association is very close knit. Organization due to the fact that there's just not as many attorneys and judges out in the Highland Lakes as if Austin or Dallas, where there's tons. And so when you get a younger person, especially in college, interested in the legal field the attorneys and judges in the area that I grew up in, just latch on you and really wanna to mentor you because it just doesn't happen too often in, in that particular area.

Miguel Sanchez : 6:40

That's interesting. And I was gonna say, actually my initial question was going to be at what point did you have interactions with other attorneys? But it also sounds like if you are someone who's a prospective law student, that it works the other way that attorneys are looking to mentor you. And that's really unique and that's great to hear. Now there are lots of great law schools in the United States and Texas has many law schools. How was the process in deciding that pace in New York in a different region was going to be your next step?

Tyler Rutherford: 7:17

I wanted to get out of Texas. I had a lot of family experiences that were challenging during my undergrad like family type commercial with major car accidents and stuff like that. And it was very taxing because I'm the type of person that I'm very close with my family. And so when there's a need, I feel like I have to fill it. I have to be the one that steps in. So going to law school I knew that if I was still close by to my family, I, it would be very difficult for me to put in that boundary that I knew I was going to need for law school. And plus I know just from reading and movies, TV shows that New York is like the place to be for. Law school attorney, the legal marketplace, and I wanted that on my resume. I am sure we'll talk about it later. I originally intended to move back to Texas, and so I thought having that New York law school, that New York internship on my resume. Would take me places when I returned to Texas, and so that was my thought process. I did apply to law schools in Texas as a backup, but I knew I wanted to leave Texas for law school.

Miguel Sanchez : 8:37

now. How was the transition what was one of the surprising things you encountered? Not from law school, we're gonna get into the law school curriculum and et cetera, but just by being in New York. So I think

Tyler Rutherford: 8:54

the first semester there's certainly challenges even putting the law school curriculum aside. I, I moved up here originally. And stayed with my mom's aunt and uncle, so some distant family, and I wasn't super close with them growing up, but they were very nice and offered for me to stay with them. They lived up in North Salem, which is about 40 minutes from White Plains. And said, I wouldn't have to pay for rent or anything like that. And so it was fantastic. You're moving up here, law school. My, I come from a working class family, so there's no I am the one taking out law school loans and so if there's any way for me to save money on housing, I'm jumping on it. And I won't go into the details, but that didn't quite go as planned. And so within a month I was moving to White Plains and my dad flew up on the drop of a dime and helped pack me up and move me to White Plains. And we actually moved in right across the street from Pace. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. There's the white little house behind the cemetery. On North Broadway, there's that church, and there's like an old cemetery. And right behind that there's this white little house. And I lived up on the third floor, which is basically like a renovated attic. And that was my place for the first year. And so that was the way I started my first semester of law school. And then going into finals, I remember vividly. Studying for finals in Isha with my friends. And it was the day, the afternoon before my last final, the criminal law final, my dad's calling me, telling me he wasn't sure if my mom was going to make it because a routine surgery went south and she was septic. And so here I am trying to study for my last. Final and not sure if my mom's gonna make it through the night. So I, my first semester was bookend with personal struggles and it was quite the transition. But I conquered and persevered and moved into the next semester and did just fine. But it was challenging.

Miguel Sanchez : 10:58

Thank you for sharing that. And that's, like you said, you're moving to a new place and family situations arise and it's very challenging and one of the things that we generally advise students is make sure that. That you prioritize your family and just from what you share, you're very close with your family. So I'm sure that was a very challenging time for you as you go into the process of law school. And now we can focus on the law curriculum. One of the things that I see in law students, especially in October or November, you might remember this and I jokingly say their faces start to turn because now they're starting to get into the curriculum and the challenges of law school, and they realize. Did I make the right decision? Because now the finals are up ahead, they're catching up on reading. It's more than they anticipated. How was the law school experience for you during your first semester, specifically with the curriculum? It

Tyler Rutherford: 11:59

was challenging. I think almost any law student would tell you that. So it's certainly not something that was unique to me. But it, it was coming from, poli sci. Background and your social sciences. I was used to the heavy reading and so I was fortunate for that. So that wasn't really a shocker to me. But I think the complexity of the classes and the different teaching method with the Socratic method and then. Knowing that this scary ghost of a thing called the curve was lurking out there. And knowing that even if I tried really hard, there might potentially not quite matter as much because of the curve. I know it's not. As that simple of a, concept. But I was fortunate to get plugged in with a great group of friends, and it was a group that were still close to this day. But we did study sessions together and some of us were better in torts and then others were in crim and some were in Cpro. And we took turns teaching of being our own little friend groups TA and, and that kind of helped also. That was'cause some of us learned better by teaching and by talking through it. And so it was really I don't think I probably would've made it through the first semester if I did not have that good friend group and study group to really. Forced me to put in the time I needed because it was a like a buddy system, an accountability system where, one, one person would be like, oh yeah, I'm going to the library to study for. Cipro, are you coming? And I might have been maybe on the fence oh, but there's really a good show. Or, oh, I really wanna do this, but okay, fine. I'll go. And then next thing you know, we're all in the study room together in the library and having a, a fun time goofing with each other, but still studying and learning all those different concepts and reading about pornography math.

Miguel Sanchez : 14:05

It could also be very consuming if you don't have the right community, because how do you know how many hours you need to study? And if you're doing this alone, it's gonna be very hard to get that feedback loop if you don't have the right group of friends to tell you, okay, focus on this. Or now's the time to do this if you try to do it on your own, which I think happens with many first gen law students, You mentioned this group of friends, and by the way, in my experience at the law school, I've seen that these student groups that start in one L year typically tend to remain together even after law school. Maybe has to do with going to the, to those difficulties that unites everyone. How are you able to find. Your group of friends, how were you able to find community?

Tyler Rutherford: 14:58

It snowballed a little bit. So it started out meeting two, two friends during orientation, the first little orientation week, and then during the next couple weeks in classes, we've connected with some additional people within my particular group. I think it was, I'm trying to remember. I think it was one, I think mine was one C. Been years now, but within my little group. And then one of my friends that I met during orientation was in a different group, and so he brought in some people from his group and just meshed together that way. And all of our personalities just meshed. We were very academic overachievers and wanna spend the time studying and asking the hard questions and. So that's how it morphed together. And to this day, we still have, we use the same GroupMe that we did first semester. And I think everyone's still in it except maybe one person. So it was still very close and tight knit. We don't get together nearly as much'cause the, our careers just a demanding career. And people are spread out among the tri-state area. But there's not a week that goes by that there's not someone posting in the group message.

Miguel Sanchez : 16:12

Above all, it's really the relationships that, that you build, that you're gonna take with you. And maybe you don't get to see each other as frequently as you wanted, but you definitely stay in touch going into. So you go to your first year and for a lot of students, and I think you will agree with this first year, you're just trying to get through, but then it sounds like, or it seems like second and third year, you get your footing and you understand what you're doing But now just as you understood or get a good grip of the one L experience and what the expectations are, you have to start thinking about careers because three years go by very quickly. I wanna focus on mentors because I think mentors are really key for first gen students how did you find them in law school?

Tyler Rutherford: 17:02

So I had a couple mentors back home in Texas that I had developed during my times at Baylor the local attorney community back in my hometown, but I also created some. Very valuable relationships and a mentor mentee relationships with professors on campus, especially Professor Muslin professor Crawford and Professor Wolski. Those Professor Muslin and Professor Wolski. I had my first semester of law school and. Something about their teaching style and just how open they were. I felt safe to go ask any questions. Like I knew there was, I was not there's not gonna be any like blowback of, oh, that's a stupid question like that. And they, there was a very welcoming environment. And I actually still view Professor Lan as a dear friend and mentor to this day. Professor Crawford, I had the fortunate experience of meeting her the first semester of law school as well, but not in a professor relationship.'cause she doesn't teach any of the first year classes, or at least not for me. It was a, she was running a research. Type program and she needed students to help go through and do citations for the surrogates court in New York. And I thought that'd be a great way to practice my blue booking seals the first semester. And that's how I met her And. Again, just a very welcoming personality, willing to help the students. I still hear from her from time to time and pop in and oh, if you know anyone looking for this job, pass along the information and I think without those relationships on campus who always had an open door policy, willing to provide advice willing to help me with the career side of things as well, and put me in touch with connections I think my law school experience would've been completely different.

Miguel Sanchez : 19:01

I'm glad you said that one. For a lot of the first gen students or first gen prospective students, we, we talk to, we emphasize the academic rigor, the focus, but at the same time, you have to build that network. Building your network is really important from what you share with us. You already had been developing a network back in Austin, coupled with the network here in New York through the law school. What type of law did you wanna practice? How did that change? And are you doing that now?

Tyler Rutherford: 19:40

So

Miguel Sanchez : 19:40

I

Tyler Rutherford: 19:40

believe I, I came originally to PACE for environmental law. It's not the the only reason I picked Pace, but it was a factor. I, I took an environmental law class my last year at Baylor and that really intrigued me. I was like, oh, this is an interesting area. And PACE just happened to be top in its field for environmental law and right outside the city, which was a little more, safe for someone coming from a farm instead of being down in this big city, big apple. But it didn't take long for me to switch my gears away from environmental law. I don't really know why. It just a natural progression and I went briefly looking at criminal law. But that was just a brief moment. And then I set my sight on tax law. Because I like the complexity of it. I enjoy math. I view the IRS code as a puzzle and trying to put the pieces together and. Not necessarily find the loopholes, within the legal bounds of what can you do, what can you not proper structuring. And that's why I'm taking a lot of classes with Professor Crawford and but I did not end up in tax law. I fell into corporate law, financial securities, and I've been practicing that area since. My first. A law clerk position my three L year, and I am beyond happy with it. I would classify it more. My current practice is a complex commercial litigation. Is what I would classify the practice.'cause I don't just handle financial securities. I do your partnership disputes a lot. Mostly litigation. There are, there's a little bit of transactional in my practice, but it's very litigation heavy. Federal arbitrations AAA arbitrations litigating in the complex litigation docket in Connecticut, as well as down in the Southern District of New York. But I fell into this by accident. I was looking for, I came back to New York, back to Pace my two l year after having, spending my two L year in Texas remote because of the COVID pandemic. And with not a lot of. Tax or corporate law experience on my resume. Just because of the way everything worked out personally and with COVID and it just, I didn't have it on my resume, but I knew I knew I needed it on my resume because I was going on my three L year. And I did not want to graduate without some sort of corporate or tax on my resume.'cause I knew without that it would be extremely difficult for me to find a position after graduating law school. And so I went on to Pace's simplicity website and looking for just a clerkship within corporate law and ran across pastor. At the time it was pastoral and daily LLC. I applied and got an interview the next week and met with Joseph Pastor the name partner of the firm. And it he told me that it was actually my research assistant position with Professor Muslin that got me the interview because he remembered professional Mashin from when he was in law school and had very fond memories. Of him and knew that if professor Muslin wanted me as his research assistant, then it was like a stamp of approval for him. And I've actually been with that firm ever since. It the connection just clicked. I enjoyed everyone at the firm. They obviously enjoyed me and my, my work products. And I've grown within the firm and I'm now a mid-level associate at the firm.

Miguel Sanchez : 23:27

Tyler, you know what you mentioned about Professor Muslin and just talking about networking with faculty. Some of and remember from other episodes when I worked in the clinics, which is a place where students practice law under the supervision of an attorney. I recall working closely with faculty, and I remember how alums at the time would ask professors if they knew of students who would be interested in an internship or a job, and they always went back to faculty. And I always encourage students to make sure you build that genuine relationship with your professor, because in my experience. A lot of the jobs and opportunities came through faculty in addition to career services and other places. I hear a lot of students interested in corporate law and some of them get that interest because they've been working as paralegals or been working in insurance or in a related field for others is more. From tv, from, thinking that, this is what they're gonna make the most money, which could be true, but can you explain how do you land a corporate job? Because that seems to be a question that a lot of students ask How do I set myself, and I know you touched on some already, but how do I really set myself to get a corporate job

Tyler Rutherford: 24:51

Absolutely. And so I actually do quite a bit of the interviewing for our firm. I am the, our representative that goes back to pace for the on-campus interview. And so what I usually look at on the resumes, is one I look at the GPA because, and it's not always indicative'cause there can be extraordinary circumstances in personal life. And so it's it's certainly not an in all be all, but it's a good barometer I think because it shows generally speaking whether or not the person has the ability. To put in the long hours needed in corporate law. Because corporate law is certainly a different beast than different areas of law. It is very taxing, very draining, very demanding. And I think it's just because of how demanding the corporate clients can be and the complexity of it. And so I look at the GPA, but then I also. Ask questions that are not on the resume. Like what, how do you communicate or what are your thoughts on sometimes having to work until 9:00 PM on a Friday? I try to gauge their work ethic and how are they with being, spontaneous sometimes on, on obligations.'cause sometimes. A client will pop up and it's, there's. Someone's infringing on a trademark and we have to move for A TRO or for financial securities. Someone's just been defrauded and we have to move. And, we start with the thinner arbitration, but then we have to go move for orders in aid of arbitration and in state court because we're afraid the defendant's about to move the assets offshore. And so sometimes, and you'll use. See those kind of urgent situations in other areas of law too. It's not something special with corporate law, but at least from the limited time I've been in the actual practicing side of the legal field, it seems as if corporate law, there's just more time commitment that goes into it.

Miguel Sanchez : 27:09

One of the insight that has me thinking is how you view the GPA. As not only the indicator, but one of the indicators of a student or in this case, an applicant's ability to work long hours. And I wouldn't think of that actually as being one of the, one of the reasons why you look at the GPA, I think a lot of people think if they have a high GPA, it means that they're. Good students and then they're intelligent or smart, however you wanna label that, but equating that to their ability to work long hours. And as you mentioned, are you gonna be okay working 9:00 PM on a Friday night? And for some people they may not be and that's totally fine. There are different areas. So thank you for sharing that. What as far as where you are now, what are some of the things that. You had, you wish you'd done differently.

Tyler Rutherford: 28:04

I think at least through law school, I would have. Taken a little bit more time to enjoy the community that the law school has. That's one of the things I miss about law school is being so close with my friend group and the community that is fostered by the law school experience.'cause you really do grow close with everyone in your law school class because of the blood, sweat and tears that go into law school and a year in law schools. Feels like just a dog year. So seven years of regular life.'Cause so I would've enjoyed a little bit more time with my friend group. I think looking past law school and first starting my career, something that. At least we didn't really talk about too much for me as being like a first generation law student and a first generation undergrad is what do you do with that new salary you have? After law school.'cause for many, I'm sure, especially for me, that's the most amount of money I ever had in my life at that point. And looking back on it, I wish I was a little bit smarter in financial planning right away because compounding goes a long way. And thankfully I recognize that sooner rather than later. And I've corrected it. But I think some sort of financial planning, thought process should go into before starting your career,

Miguel Sanchez : 29:40

do you think aspiring law students should be thinking about the personal finance more serious before they started law school or after law school or somewhere in between?

Tyler Rutherford: 29:52

I think. Before law school, especially if you're the person that's going to take out student loans, because you go into law school thinking, okay, great, you're gonna be making quite a bit of money when you graduate, which can be true depending on the area of law you practice. But it's not a across the board high salary career. And so if you're going to law school, you're taking out student loans, you go into maybe family law and you intend to move back to your small town. You're probably not going to be making right out of that six figures. And so now you have to look at your student loans that you're gonna have to pay back on top of living expenses on top of your salary. And so that salary that is. It is a great salary and by any means fantastic salary, but it gets eaten up quick by your mandatory expenses. And so I think that's something I didn't fully appreciate before going to law school and even during law school. And so I think I think it's, it would be wise for students to think about that before they actually go into law school. Just to. To make sure that you're in a position that you can repay all of the student loans to the extent you take student loans. I know there's people fortunate enough not to, and that's fantastic. And I've already opened a 5 29 account for my daughter. But it's,'cause I think if you don't think about it, at least during law school, preferably before, but if you don't think about it, at least during. You're setting yourself up potentially for a headache because maybe you're in a financial situation with your student loans that. You, maybe you wanted to do criminal law, but you just can't right away because you're not gonna be able to make the salary You need to actually live a comfortable life and repay the student loans. So for a brief period, maybe you need to dip your toe into corporate law to quickly bank the money, pay off loans, at least get into a more financially stable position, and then you can pivot into the area you want to go into where you won't be making as much money. I'm certainly not a financial advisor, but that's just my 2 cents in, in living through it.

Miguel Sanchez : 32:10

No, and that's just, that's why we do this and that's why we have these episodes with people like you because we want to share, like you said, we're not giving financial advice, but we are giving. A general understanding of what are some of the questions you should be asking yourself, and if you don't have the answers to those questions, you should reach out to people who might have the answers. And that can include alums of the law school, maybe people at your undergrad, if you still in undergrad. If you're a paralegal. I know we have many paralegals who listen to this podcast to get their insights of law school, to speak to your boss or someone else in the firm. Who's had that experience, not just on the curriculum, but also on the, to the extent that you feel comfortable, the personal finance. To end, Tyler, is there anything else you'd like to share? Is there anything that you feel perspective first generation students should know

Tyler Rutherford: 33:04

Build a strong network you're going to have to lean on people in your law school class and people at the school more than people that have attorneys in the family and stuff like that. And, but that's okay. But it, those are essential relationships to form. I think that you cannot go through law school without a support system. And I strongly encourage building one and don't discount the support that your parents and your family can provide you, even though they may not be going through your, the experience of law school because. No matter what, they're always going to be your biggest cheerleaders and they're going to help you. They may not completely understand everything you're going through but they will do their absolute best, so don't discount the support that they can offer.

Miguel Sanchez : 34:03

Tyler, thank you very much. Wish you the best of luck and we'll be in touch soon. Thank you,

Tyler Rutherford: 34:09

Miguel.