Miguel Sanchez: 0:02

Welcome to another episode of the First Gen 1 0 1 podcast. Today we have Jacquie Carroll. Jacquie, welcome.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 0:11

How are you?

Miguel Sanchez: 0:13

Good. I'm so excited about this episode and we were just talking about this moments ago before we started the recording, about how we met and how this podcast came to be. And I'm gonna give our listeners some context about how we met, because I think it's gonna really help us in our conversation. So we actually met during or at a financial aid conference in Chicago about three years ago, and at the time I was planning on becoming an A FC, an accredited financial counselor. And we can talk about that in this episode, what that means and how it's helpful. And at the time, I shared with you this goal, and you provided helpful tips. Then about a year later, you spent some time with me at the Association for Financial Counseling and Planning Education Symposium in new Orleans. And at the time, you were helping me understand how to navigate the certification process, and with your guidance, I was able to meet the requirements to become an A FC. So first. I want to express gratitude for your guidance in helping me secure the a FC.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 1:19

You're very welcome. Miguel.

Miguel Sanchez: 1:20

that's how you became part of my first generation story. So with that note, Jacquie, share with me your first generation story.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 1:29

absolutely. So Miguel, one of the things is sometimes, you know, I, I have my doctorate, I have an AFC and sometimes people look at me and they don't see me as a first gen student. And I was totally first gen, non-traditional, all the way muddling my way through the cis. And, I. started out, actually the daughter of immigrants. So I did some of the same things that probably all immigrants can relate to, which is we were in the family business, which was a restaurant business, because that's one of the things, if you're a great cook, you can start a business anywhere English was actually my second language. Uh, later on I learned Spanish, which is my third language in a way, but really English was my second language. And so again, that's probably something that was very important because I realized you can learn. English, the language, language acquisition skills rather quickly as far as the basic interactions. Like, Hey, how are you? I like your shirt and I like your dress and all that stuff. But once you move into academics, that's entirely different. And really having to learn how to navigate, um, the written system that you may have not been practicing all along. So that was one of the things. And, um. And then it was really, so, I mean, I followed in my parents' footstep for a while. I had my own restaurant. I thought, Hey, my parents were ducks. I'm a duck, so quack, quack. You know? Here I go. And then it turned out I got married and had children and I thought, you know what? I want something different. Right. And I remember that. I always loved learning. I enjoyed school. I, the bummer was when I went to high school, I was like, they really. Uh, I was thinking I, I was a student who loved learning and to go through an educational process that takes the love of learning out of you.

Miguel Sanchez: 3:14

Mm-hmm.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 3:14

That says a lot. So when I started back at college, I realized oh, I now have some control over the things that I will learn and, and that, so, you know, that's kind of how I started. And again, my parents. Well, not able to navigate the system with me because first of all, they're from another country. They got the education in another country, totally different here. And um, so I didn't have anybody to sit down with, maybe like you and I did, to say, Hey, Jacquie, here's how you do it. You know, here's some here's some tweaks, here's some things you can use. It was really, I had to find it all out the hard way, and that's why I wanna share it all the time because it takes an effort. You know, if It was easy. everybody would have a degree.

Miguel Sanchez: 3:58

No, I agree. And one thing that I just wanna highlight, it's, we now have another thing in common, and you had some experience in the restaurant business and I worked in the restaurant business for 10 years. Um, and we can talk about some of those experiences at another time, but one thing that I, that you mentioned is your parents' involvement. And related to that, what were some of the biggest challenges? That you faced as a first generation college student? Was it that your parents were not able to help you in ways that you needed? Or maybe was there more things that you faced during college?

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 4:36

My parents weren't able to help me at all, basically. they really, that was not on their radar. They didn't think about it. They didn't experience in their life how that was a valuable tool for people that are living here, that that's an entryway didn't, you know, I mean, we had successful restaurant. They're like, Hey, what's wrong with this? And, uh, so they weren't, they just didn't. Didn't see the importance of it because what they were doing worked well and it worked well within their parameters. Right. for me to start something new was then kind of, well that sounds great and good luck to you and, uh, let us know if you need anything. But really most of the time it was just me. I started out, which is kind of funny, I started out my very first. education was a paralegal certificate and I thought, oh my God, I love the law and and so I end up trying to go into a bachelor's degree because I wanted that as the foundation for going to law school. And it turns out in that process of getting my undergraduate, I really realized what I truly love is learning and teaching and helping people learn. You know, I still love the law. It's, I love to argue, and debate, but really it's about helping people to understand that we. all can learn and we can all be be successful.

Miguel Sanchez: 5:51

What can you tell us about how do you learn to learn? In other words, how do you think students today, whether they're in high school, in college, how they should be thinking about learning?

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 6:03

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, So I'll tell you how I figured it out. You know, I like I said, I loved to learn, so I enjoyed learning, And so I was able to bring with that my own energy and things like that, even if I had instructors and teachers that were less than motivational, let's just say that kindly, right? But when I went to college with, uh, a full-time job, two young children, toddlers. A husband. and, uh, trying to start changing my life through education. I was very, very, very, very busy. And One day, I remember coming out of the school library. and It was a beautiful day. I mean, I remember it so vividly. and I was looking around and the sun was coming through the trees and was shimmering. And I was like, wow, it's spectacular. And I had no idea. What I needed to do next. I was like total overload. I was like, okay, I know I'm here. I, I don't know what I'm supposed to do, or where to go next? And I realized at that point. I'm working too hard, I'm working too hard. I needed to learn to be smarter about my time and my efforts. And So when I had a chance, I did talk to somebody, um, at the library. and they said, Hey, you know what? Have you ever thought about just checking into study skills? And I'm like, study skills. I have no idea what that is, right? And so study skills is a multitude of things that include things such as recognizing how we as individuals learn'cause we all learn a little bit differently. We all have the capability of learning, and we all like to learn because think of us as little babies We were always like touching things, and doing things. and asking, you know what I mean? And, and that doesn't have to stop ever. And, um, but we do it a certain way. And then the other thing is also behavioral, right? So what I learned is I learned that there are cognitive functions that I needed to understand about myself. Whether that was circadian rhythms, you know, when are you highly, uh, active aware When does your how does your body function? those. type of things. Um. And then also behavioral such as Discipline. Getting myself disciplined. The hardest thing for me ever was is trying to find I had to find time, trying to find the time for me to do things right with toddler husband work. And so the time I found was from five o'clock to seven o'clock in the morning'cause everybody was still sleeping. And then at night from eight to 10,'cause they were little, so I could say, Hey, look, the clock says eight o'clock, it's bedtime. There's nothing, I can't help you. you know? what I mean? It's just how it's, and so they would go to bed, but, and so then I'd have stu time to study. I was never a morning person. And so part of the things I learned from the study skills is to reprogram my body And to teach it, to prepare to be ready, right? So it did even things like, things I didn't think about is when you start studying make sure your tools are already there so that you don't have to waste time to get up and refill your coffee, get a pen, find some paper, look at your you, know what? I mean? And that's kind of almost like how athletes prepare. so really looking. at study skills, both from a cognitive behavioral and a physical aspect to maximize so that you can study efficiently, effectively, and Time sensitive, Right. Because we all don't have any time.

Miguel Sanchez: 9:29

I'm taking some notes and there's a couple things you said about study skills. And even for me, when I think of study skills, I usually think about, am I reading this properly? Am I understanding? I wasn't really thinking about just little examples such as you're a morning person or you are a night person. preparing your environment, right? Having the things you need readily available so that you don't interrupt yourself, with social media and cell phones being so readily available, there's a lot of distractions. So on the topic of distractions. How do you, why do you think people should be managing that?

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 10:10

It, you know, that is, a commitment to yourself, right? And I started that because when I was working, uh, I realized that, you know, I don't know last 10 years, it really was that employers were encroaching always on your time, you would get emails all time, day, night, all that stuff. And there was an expectation almost for you to instantly respond and stuff like

Miguel Sanchez: 10:31

like that. Mm.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 10:32

And I start thinking about that. And so what I did is I really, for example, just a simple Thing is I took my phone put it in my office at, at, nighttime. I didn't answer it, I just left it in the office, closed the door. If People call. It just, it was just doing that. And that was very, very, um, really a relief to me, right? Giving myself the permission to not having to be available all the time. And so I think that's one of the things even for first gen students, it's you have to be greed. And we're not used to being greedy. We're all very helpful. You have to learn to be greedy about your time. You have to be greedy about the things that are important to you. And so even when I was talking with my kids and or my husband, it was like, look. this is important to me and I need this time. And so my kids knew when mom was studying. You know what I mean they, but then I also, spent the time with them and gave them their time, but they knew it was important, and I was greedy about it. And I always say if you're gonna be greedy be greedy about knowledge, because I truly believe knowledge is power,

Miguel Sanchez: 11:40

One thing that I highlight when I talk to first generation law students, especially ones who have families, is just this, a big part of your education is going to be having these frank. Conversations with your family about the time management, uh, especially nowadays where again, there's distractions, but you also have to be really focused on what you are, what you're studying. would you say that distractions and lack of commitment is the biggest challenge right now for students? Or what, what would you say? It's the biggest challenge? Right now that first generation students should be challenge, should be, uh, confronting or overcoming?

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 12:23

You know, I think it's time, you know, because we are all, you know, there's a lot of demands on our time. We are just getting it from all ends, especially when you are trying to make it still, it's different when you already have a job and you have financial security, but when you trying to make it, you know, You're trying to hustle a side job, you're trying to, You know, take care of your kids, you're trying to find daycare, you're trying to do all those different things, So time. really that time is one of the things, Finding the time, figuring out how am I gonna find the time to dedicate to myself. The other thing though, I think is cost, right? Because There's a lot of costs involved, whether those are financial, Those costs, you know, and I'm gonna wanna talk a little bit more about financial hacks.'cause I Have some suggestions, for that. But there's also. cost to our social fabrics and our social networks, especially for first gen students. So one of the things I've recognized and I've seen with other first gen students that I've kind of mentored or talked with and things like that, is that when you try to change your life. And Others aren't Sometimes. you get some pushback, you know, Sometimes you get some pushback from your own set network where you think my God, these people should be just like overjoyed and rooting for me and going for it, and, and sometimes not so much because then sometimes, you know, it feels like. Maybe those individuals look at themselves and go, well. gosh, if Jockey can do it, or if Miguel can do it. you know, how come I'm not doing it well. you, you know, it's just, there's even that cost in there. So sometimes you have to be prepared that there are some social costs that I think people don't even recognize, you know? And then overall, the return on investment. The return on investment. I still believe education changed my life because it gave me the trajectory that I wanted, but the return on the investment that was true during my time is not necessarily the same. now. And so Really figuring out, you know, What's important in your life, What do you want to get out of your, education? How is your education gonna help you achieve the things in your life that are meaningful? Whether that is personal self satisfaction, you know, um. Or supporting your family and providing a better future for them and you know, whatever it may be, most people go to school to to do something right. to, To do, make it better for their family or even themselves. So I think those three things coupled together are some of the biggest challenges because there's a lot of noise right now and it gets drowned out. It's hard to focus and that's one of the things I learned with. study skills is. You have to focus. If you focus and block things out, that stuff, then you are getting that information. If you're constantly interrupted,

Miguel Sanchez: 15:11

Mm-hmm.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 15:12

happen. It's just not gonna happen. And then, you think, oh, this is not, for me. and it's not that, it's not, you're just not carving that time out for you so that you can get

Miguel Sanchez: 15:26

I went to college, I went to a community college and at first. I was really, for many reasons, you know, as a young person, I wanted to go to, any of the big state schools or any of the big names, that were, and are still popular to this day. And there's nothing wrong with that. But at the time, we were just not in a financial position where we could do that. So instead I enrolled at community college. I completed the two years, then I went to a four year state university and then on and now I really appreciate that because I was paying for college as I was going. I was working, paying the tuition at the community college, then working, paying the tuition at the state school. you mentioned financial hacks. What are some things that first generation students should be thinking in terms of costs, uh, return of investment?

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 16:25

Yeah. I actually had much the same journey, you know, I started at the community college because it was easy Access. It

Miguel Sanchez: 16:32

easy

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 16:32

access and uh, when I realized, oh, you can get financial aid. I'm like, Ooh, somebody's paying me to go to school. So I love that, right? I mean, I still had to work and all that, but. taking advantage of work study. What I like about that is people at the college get to know you, and once people get to know you, when opportunities arise, they will say, Hey, Miguel, Hey Jacquie. There's that scholarship you might be well suited for. Why don't you apply for it? Why don't you check it out, right? So networking early. on. um. I like the fact that. what I would say now, is even people who are, which they didn't have this when you and I were going probably, but now, um, a lot of students are able to complete a co-curricular opportunity during high school. So they're able to attend already. When I was teaching at the community college, I used to teach English and I had a lot of students who were enrolled, who were high school students who were doing dual credit, So leveraging that dual credit, if you can. The other thing is for non-traditional students, one of the things, one of the hacks that I found is that you don't have to necessarily take the class, you just have to demonstrate. mastery. So for example, I was fluent in German, and you had to have. Foreign language. So I clipp that. So that clipping saved me a lot of time. Right? So some people might be able to take Spanish as a second language or French or whatever it is. Um, or if you can demonstrate Any other skill that you could learn in a class where you. You know, you're really providing that? um, demonstration that you have that skill. So For me as a, a person that was already married had had run my own business and all those type of things, I was also using a portfolio development, So you could put together a portfolio that showcased skills that you already had that were transferable into education, and then you would just pay a fee. And so they, I, you know, it just made things a little bit faster then. When I went to my, uh, transferred to the state school again, at the time, I think it was still doable. You, know, I was working again, I was working work study I I did some fun stuff, with work, study. I mean, I learned how to become art, research, art and things like that. And I'm kind of doing that right now. You can see I still got some art pieces in the back where I'm doing some fun stuff like that. Um, But, um, Those create really opportunities as far with connections. in the, in the, um. Within, the school. And so again, leveraging the scholarships and those type of things that come your way, and really focusing on that is one. But I also did the same as you, which is pay as you go and take your time because there's no rush. There's no rush. You're actually tortoise and the hare. If you're taking that small that. step moving towards the future, that's the right direction. Um, and so then I finished my bachelor's degree. I had an emergency. We had an emergency as a family and I took out a$2,500 loan at the, time, and I was like, oh my gosh,$2,500. That's just, and then I paid that back with, it was$50, um, because it was under a certain amount Then you only pay$50. I think it took like four, years to pay it back, which is still a long time. Think about that 50, you know what I mean? Um. And then I had an opportunity. I was in the educational setting, and I was able to, uh, get a scholarship full ride for master's degree. and there I did my multicultural teaching English as a second language degree. And so that was free. so that was awesome. And then as I continued on in education, I was at another university and they had a program that was called tuition Assistance. And so that tuition assistance program is available to a wide variety of people. It's not just for higher education. Even when I was working with law school students, I had a student who was working like in New York for the sheriff's department and they wanted to go to law school and so they leveraged, they were gonna go part-time and then they were leveraging that. Tuition assistance and getting that reimbursed. You know, any courses that they took. so you know, Starbucks, Costco, I mean, there's a whole bunch of companies If you wanted to Work and go part-time, that will pay for you to complete your educational program. This school. Uh, paid for that. I think at the time it was like$5,250 of credits you could do. And so I think I benefited for that for like maybe four years. And then I took out, um. Some student loans. Which I wish I wouldn't have done Like now in retrospect, I think I would've just said, no, you know what? I'm just gonna wait a little bit. But then later on I was at some other organizations, where I was able to do, you know, certificate program at Harvard They paid for that. I didn't pay for that, leverage, those type of things. So my advice would be is if you can pay and learn as you go. that would be probably ideal because nowadays. You know, it's the return On your investment. is really good for probably still your bachelor's degree, but once you move up a little bit higher. I think you really need to crunch the numbers.

Miguel Sanchez: 21:45

It wasn't until I worked in admissions that I realized, you know what, an MBA will actually be very helpful in helping me with the, the work that I do. And so I completed my MBA and very similar to your experience. I also, used tuition. In our case it's called tuition remission. but it wasn't until I started working that I realized that I needed this. It, it seems to me that there are a lot of students who just wanna do all these things without even thinking about how they. How they benefit. Um, and so I think it's really important for students to, you know, go to school, but also maybe get some work experience after, especially after their bachelor's degree, so they can get a sense of what is, what's best for them in terms of learning. Going back to this idea of learning how to learn is it's, it's knowing about you. Knowing yourself, and knowing what's going to help you in the, in the long term or in the medium term. That said, I wanna talk about, mentorship.'cause I think one of the ways that first generation graduates and students can empower themselves is building a network. we talk about mentorship, but how do you, how do you find a mentor? Do you go to someone and say, Hey, do you wanna be my mentor? Do you go to someone and say, Hey, do you wanna be my mentee? Like how does that relationship start? Yeah.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 23:02

Yeah, that's a great question. And so I went to a conference once and I wanna tell you something, and this is Something I learned so late in life, I wish I would've learned it a lot sooner because it's so powerful And, um, it was a woman, and she did the presentation, and there's something about wisdoms of pearls, pearls of wisdom or something, that, and I just don't remember the name. but her advice was this get yourself a peer. That you can talk to and the peer is somebody that you can talk to and really say, Hey, you know what? Today I'm having a bad day, Or Oh my God, this is great. Whatever. it is, get somebody that really you can connect to on that personal level where you can share Whatever happens without any feeling of repercussion or anything like that, Then get yourself a mentor, somebody that will, take you under your wings. And I personally believe that, yes. ask for it. Figure out, you know, sometimes you'll find people who want they mentor you, but I think it's okay. to ask for it. Help me get to the next level Because people actually want to. I hardly find anybody that says, Nope, not gonna help you. Not gonna do it. Not gonna do, uh, nope. Not at all. Right? People wanna help. We all, want your success is my success. I'm overjoyed. You got your A FC, right? And um, but help asking for mentors. So I think sometimes. that's kind of. Unusual because We're also in a culture where we're not encouraged to ask for help. It's like, Hey, pull yourself up by your

Miguel Sanchez: 24:27

Yes.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 24:28

Work a little harder. You're not doing it right. No, You know, I mean, all the best people that are successful have a mentor. So get a mentor. Here's the one that was often overlooked for me. I didn't know until the very end. when you. are at your job and at your career. Get somebody that is an advocate for you at the decision making table, because that's gonna be instrumental for navigating your career, right? It's great to have somebody to bounce ideas off on a peer. It's somebody great to have a mentor, that's gonna say, hey, blah, blah, blah, here's what you should do. to Get to the next level. But unless there's somebody at the decision making table saying, Miguel is that person that we're gonna float up the chain. and he's gonna be the next so and so, It's not gonna happen. Right? And So having all three is very important. and they all Have distinctively different functions. Uh, And I think I wanted to share that because I learned that so late. I'm just like, oh my god I forgot about that. Because if you have nobody, at the table, you know, like they say, if you are not representative at the table. you're usually on the menu.

Miguel Sanchez: 25:33

How was it for you? How did you find a mentor, um, like for your first job? The reason why I'm highlighting this point is because it seems to me like there's a gap. You know, students finish degree and then they need to get this first job, but a lot of people or a lot of students are under disbelief that just by sending out applications is enough and it's not, you really have to build that social capital. How was it like for you? Did you have anyone helping you get your first job? What did that look like for you?

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 26:07

Yeah, so I, you know what the thing is, um, I worked at the study skills center at the university, right? I actually became a peer mentor for study skills, helping students learn how to learn.'cause I, I, when I learned that, I was like, I gotta share this with everybody This is so important. you know? And So I became a mentor and I love that my first job was kind of a job at the university It was, uh, and I had a, Um, mentor, there who was my supervisor, and the greatest thing she ever did for me is, Hey, you know what, I'm a great public speaker and I can talk to anybody I used to do presentations and things like that. But I could not write worth nothing. You know, I, I never learned how to type or anything like that. And she held me accountable on that and said, look, this is one of the things you needed to learn. And I'm like, okay. And so my mentor in that job. was great because She said, yeah, you do a lot of things good, but that's not good enough. You're gonna need To help and do this. And so I learned a lot of things under her tutelage and then I was gonna apply at the CO at the, college for a job, and she said, you know what? You don't need to work here. You are good now. You can go out now and get a job out in the real world. And, I, and so having that, so that was kinda almost like a transitional job for me, right. From being in academia to doing something, uh, a job at the college that wasn't necessarily a work study job, Uh, and then going into. really the career. So that's kind of how it happened with me It was really, because I didn't know I needed a mentor and I didn't really see what my shortcomings were.

Miguel Sanchez: 27:53

I'm glad you shared that. One of the things that we don't, or we often overlook is as we're searching for mentors, we want people to, to support us, to be sort of our cheerleaders, but I think we also. Need to find mentors who are gonna be frank and going to be, a guide in, in, in telling us, okay, you need to work on this, you need to work on that. if you don't know your shortcomings or your weaknesses, it's gonna be very hard to improve. Jacquie, what has been your biggest achievement as a first generation graduate?

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 28:25

You know, I think my biggest achievement has been that I'm able to pass on To as many people as possible that everybody can learn, you know, if you, no matter what you wanna learn, you can learn. It's'cause. Um, you know, I I helped my sisters get a bachelor's degree, helped them navigate the system, You know, my children did and things like that. But it was really that whole thing about learning how to learn. and making that. so that we can do the things in our life that we want to. And uh, so because those are all transferable skills, it doesn't matter what you do That learning how to learn is so important because younger people nowadays are gonna change jobs. My god, you know, in our time they said 10 to 15 different jobs, maybe no career changes, Right? But the younger generation now, they're saying you might change complete careers. So doing something

Miguel Sanchez: 29:23

yes,

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 29:24

different and learning those skills are transferable. skills and Recognizing that I think is power. Like even for me, I actually now full circle, you know, I'm leaving education. I'm started, I started a new business, uh, creating games that have an educational component that are highly motivational. You know, I've always used to hear, for example, people say, oh my God, I can't do math. as a study skills. Tutor, you know, they like, I just can't do it. I'm not I heard it from law school students. I'm like, no, that's actually not true. People can. And so I started to think about, you know, creating games that help promote learning in authentic ways that make it fun, that make it engaged, And so that to bring that love of learning back to people that we had when we were little kids, because that's what life is. It's just full of discovery, of learning and things that the future holds. We don't even know.

Miguel Sanchez: 30:23

And so how can people learn more about, these games, to help promote learning?

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 30:28

so like my first game at that is get nine, which is, again, it's fun motivational, but it's also to help you overcome that math anxiety. Go to game Craft us and craft is Spelled with a K, which means strength and power in German. So it's, you know, power through games. and just email me and uh, and I'd be happy to share anything I know with anybody. You can check out the game. My next game that I'm. Trying to develop right now is going to college, because again. having been in financial aid for such a long time, the one thing that financial aid I always heard is saying people, we tell students, but they just don't get it. And I'm, they're like, it would be great if there was a game. So I'm like, oh, let me think about, it. And so that's gonna be my next one. So If you wanna check that out uh, you know, if you wanna gimme some feedback, insights, participate, you know, just reach out and I'll tell you anything I know. I mean, I really will because I love sharing the knowledge. That's what it's about. for me.

Miguel Sanchez: 31:25

Thank you, Jacquie. And I'll be sure to include the information on the show notes and our links that people can find it and share their thoughts with you. Jacquie, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences.

Jacquie Carroll, EdD, AFC: 31:38

Thank you.