Nick Moustakas: 0:00

How do you think law school transform you? In a lot of ways they tell you it's gonna happen. You don't think it's gonna happen, but it happens, I think differently. I really do, and I can't explain it. Maybe it's more analytical. You look at everything. With a question mark in your head. You question everything. At least I do. I look at every situation and I look at both sides, and I think it really does. Law school really does do that. Mm-hmm.

Miguel Sanchez : 0:36

Welcome to another episode of the First Gen 101 podcast. Today we have Nick Moustakas. Nick, thank you for being here today.

Nick Moustakas: 0:46

Absolutely. Thanks for having, me on.

Miguel Sanchez : 0:48

You graduated from the Elisabeth House School of Law in 2024. How has that year been since you graduated? it?

Nick Moustakas: 0:57

It's been good. It's been eventful. This

Miguel Sanchez : 1:00

summer

Nick Moustakas: 1:00

summer right after Is like a blur. It's almost like it didn't happen. Like I, when I think of last summer now,'cause it, studying for the bar, take the bar. It's just, it's so weird

Miguel Sanchez : 1:14

Think

Nick Moustakas: 1:14

even think about that summer. It really feels like it didn't exist. Like when I think of last summer, I think of two years ago because the bar just consumes you so much. The bar is a big. Big event and keep you very busy. Definitely. And then after that, just started working. So it's it's just been, straight through from there.

Miguel Sanchez : 1:37

We'll get to the bar exam because that in and of itself has its own challenges before we get there, at what point did you decide that you wanted to be a lawyer? One of the things that I ask our guests in the podcast is there's usually something that happened in in students that creates that motivation or sort of that moment that sparks interest in law. What was that for you?

Nick Moustakas: 2:04

Yeah, for me, I think back to I did a high school mock trial class and I think I had, an idea of wanting to. Potentially be a lawyer before then. So I think I took that class in my senior year of high school and I think I had thoughts of being a lawyer before then. But of course, you don't really know for sure, right? I think you start to get an idea, but it's, you don't know for sure at that point. And I think I found that experience to be a lot of fun. So I just remember, asking a witness a question on the stand and

Miguel Sanchez : 2:42

you

Nick Moustakas: 2:43

I think it was a, I think it was a, I was cross examining them and it went well and I was like, this is what I wanna do. And so I think that really is what kind of sparked my interest from there.

Miguel Sanchez : 2:57

so it sounds like it started in high school, going into college. What, did you attend school after high school? Yeah,

Nick Moustakas: 3:05

Yeah, so I did a year at Duchess Community College in Poughkeepsie. I was a criminal justice major. It didn't really, at that point, it wasn't solidified that I wanted to go to law school. I just, I was a criminal justice major. I thought about possibly becoming a police officer. And then I and then I transferred to PACE and Pleasantville officer my first year. And that's when I found out about Pace's three plus three program which I didn't end up doing, but it. Really solidified my choice to go to law school. So it wasn't solidified when I started college that I was definitely gonna go to law school. I didn't have that figured out till, another year later. But yeah.

Miguel Sanchez : 3:54

So for our listeners, the three plus three program, and there are undergrad institutions that. Have these partnerships, whether it's with the law school within the university or even other law schools a student can study three years of undergrad and if they meet all the requirements and they take the right courses, they can take their senior year to be their first year in law school so that they complete law school in a shorter. Time. In other words, three years of undergrad, three years of law school, where if they're done separately, it would be four years of undergrad, three years law school doing it. Full-time. And the idea is to get students to accelerate in some way, if that's something that the student has if they wanna be lawyers. So you attended PACE undergrad and did you work during undergrad? What was your undergrad experience like?

Nick Moustakas: 5:00

Yeah. So for me, undergrad I, first of all, I was a commuter, so I commuted from here in Dutchess County. Down at Pleasantville. It was about a, 45 minute drive. So it wasn't anything crazy. And I did work. My dad owns a small business that's like seasonal work for the first part of the school year up until Around November or so, I would work with him when I wasn't in school. And then during the winter I would, find a job working at a retail store or something like that. Until the time for working with my dad started again in the spring.

Miguel Sanchez : 5:37

And what type of work does your dad do? If he's still doing the same work or back

Nick Moustakas: 5:42

Yeah. He owns a driveway seal coating business. So it's a, like paving over or steel coating over blacktop on driveways to keep it intact and main maintain it and help it help the blacktop last longer.

Miguel Sanchez : 5:59

Or your parents what was when you them that you wanted to go to law school, you started preparing for law school, how did your parents support you or what was their advice to you in the process?

Nick Moustakas: 6:14

Yeah, I think my parents were absolutely like. Onboard with me the whole time. They were always very supportive. I remember, in high school when here's a spoiler for you. I wasn't the greatest high school student, okay? I just not, not that committed in high school. Which, you're a teenager and you're doing what you. Wanna do. And so I'll preface it with that. And I remember when I told my guidance counselor that I possibly wanted to go to law school, my parents were there. And I remember him, him saying I that might be a little farfetched. It might be a little out of reach.

Miguel Sanchez : 6:53

You.

Nick Moustakas: 6:54

At the,'cause at the time, I wasn't getting into Harvard, that's for sure. From undergrad from high school. I remember my parents just being so furious with that statement just'cause they were like, if you wanna do something, you can absolutely do it. And clearly they were right. So they've always been very supportive.

Miguel Sanchez : 7:13

Nick, when you, that experience you're sharing with us, I've heard that. Similar statement at least four times now in previous episodes. And now I'm wondering why do you think that is? And why do you think and there are a lot of great guidance counselors out there, don't get me wrong, but why would someone, I guess from your perspective, why someone who's there to support a student. Say something like that. Have you ever thought about maybe there's something about the way students are being advised what are your thoughts about, hearing something like that?

Nick Moustakas: 7:50

I understand why my parents were very upset about it, but for me it just lit a fire under me, I think, and wanted to prove him wrong. I remember a friend of mine too I told him I wanted to go to law school and he was like. Come on. And I think those kinds of things excite you and light a fire under you and motivate you to prove people wrong. And I think that's certainly what it did for me. Now why do, why might a guidance counselor, say that? I think they try to find a good, happy medium of. Motivating people, but also keeping expectations realistic Now in high school, is that entirely necessary to keep expectations realistic? I guess I think so. You certainly don't wanna just tell someone, oh yeah, you can just go and go to law school or go to medical school or do whatever. Because they might think they don't have to, they can do it without putting in the hard work that it takes to get there. So I think they try to manage expectations, if I had to guess. But. I'm not really sure if that, if I had to guess, it's definitely to keep expectations. Well managed, at the same time, maybe they're trying to light a fire under their people, I don't know. I don't know. I know that guidance counselor, I know him personally. He actually does the same kind of work that my dad does during the summer. And he is a great guy and. I remember I called him when I found out I got into law school and he was like you proved me wrong. So it was he's a good guy and I think he, I think it was part him trying to motivate me.'cause he knew me well. He knew what motivated me. But, also trying to manage my expectations a little bit, which is fair.

Miguel Sanchez : 9:35

And I, and it jumps at me because one of the things that, that that we've heard in past episodes is that, the reason why I started, if you remember that moment, is because there are specific moments in people's life, whether it's something that happened to them. if there was a person, whether it's a mentor or in this case, someone who who made a statement that can really either motivate someone even discourage someone. And so that, that could go both ways. So I'm always curious to, to know perspectives about that. So you going through college and you realize that maybe the three plus three program was not the best fit at that point. and before we jump into the actual application process. Did you ever have any law related internships during college? Any experiences, that sort of gave you an insight to what it's like to be a lawyer?

Nick Moustakas: 10:32

I didn't have any internships that were law related in college. I did shadow an attorney once for a couple of days down in White Plains. And, that was, it was, it was a couple days, so it wasn't a great, real insight into what being an attorney is but it was good to see, like just what a day or two might look like. So I didn't do anything beyond that really. I did Model un, which there, there were certainly, some people who would be like on the boards and things like that, who were went to law school or things like that and, had brief conversations with them about it. One of my professors was a lawyer who just graduated from Case when she was teaching a class and she knew everybody in the class. Was interested in going to law school. So she would talk about it a lot. but yeah, those were my experiences. in undergrad, I didn't do any, long-term internships though.

Miguel Sanchez : 11:31

And so going into the actual law school process.'cause think, and again, you know this, going through the law school education and the process, it's very unique and it's very demanding. And I wanna make sure that we spend enough time on that because I think that's really helpful to prospective law students, especially first gen who don't know what to expect and just don't know what it's like to go to law school and to go through that process. So you decide to go to law school and. What was the har, what was the, I guess the cha the, what was the hardest piece of preparing for law school? Is it the lsat? Is it deciding where you're gonna go? What was the biggest challenge before getting into law school?

Nick Moustakas: 12:13

Yeah, so I think as far as challenges. Where I wanted to go was definitely the lowest on the list. Just'cause I, I went to Pace, I was, I liked Pace and I knew the head of law school and I was, I wanted to do the three, three program for a while. It wasn't until Covid happened that, I decided it was best to just hold off. wait till there. I'll wait till I graduate and then I, hopefully be in person for my first year. So

Miguel Sanchez : 12:44

because

Nick Moustakas: 12:44

I wanted to do the three three program pace was always like my top choice, just'cause the, the three three program was always there. So that was definitely the, on the low end of stressors for preparing for law school. At least for me, I think the highest, the highest stressor, the highest challenge. The biggest challenge was the lsat, I think for me. I didn't do any kind of commercial tutoring or anything like that. I really just, Taught myself for the most part. I remember I did a, like a one or two night quick little trial course at pace, I think. And that was helpful. But the LSAT's tough and especially teaching yourself was difficult. And, I was just trying to get whatever score I needed to. Get into law school. It was a tough challenge to, to get there and to do the practice over and over again when you're just, some of those things, some of those questions just, I have no idea what I was doing, so that was definitely the biggest challenge for me.

Miguel Sanchez : 13:56

And after you take the lsat, you think you're done. And then you law school and you realize you have to continue putting all those hours into studying. and then we'll talk about that in a moment. how was the day before orientation? Was it something like, ah, I'm just gonna go, or were there concerns, or maybe, hesitations, nervous? What did that night before orientation look like for you?

Nick Moustakas: 14:22

Yeah, I'll tell you this. I remember the weekend before I went out to to the Hamptons with my now fiance and her family. They, her uncle, I think, rented a house for the weekend or something like that and invited us to go, which was very nice. And I remember on Saturday there was a

Miguel Sanchez : 14:42

huge

Nick Moustakas: 14:44

storm coming in and they were, I think, telling people to evacuate because it was gonna be real bad. And that's Saturday and my orientation's Monday. I was planning on leaving Sunday morning and I'm like, I gotta get outta here.'cause if I get stuck here and I miss my orientation, it's gonna be a disaster. So I left I left like Saturday around two o'clock and it, I didn't get home till about 10:00 PM and that's from. The Hamptons to Poughkeepsie. It shouldn't take you eight hours to get home. But there was so much traffic because everybody was, people were evacuating there, just, it just took forever. So anyway, that was two days before, but the day before, I think I was just trying to figure out what I needed to. Due, there was some homework that they asked us to complete before we went, That I still had to get done. So it was a lot of that, a lot of kind of rereading through everything, making sure I was, felt prepared to go in. And and, just letting the nerves pull down a little bit.

Miguel Sanchez : 15:51

So you go to the process of orientation and then you, and you might remember that it's very general and a lot of people speaking and giving you support and advice to start your education. But then really, and so from my experience I see that into the second or third week, maybe the month in of your first semester. That's when. In my experience, I see people's faces change. A lot of them seem concerned or worried or just stressed because now they're really going through the readings and the classes, et cetera. what point in your first semester did you realize this is unlike anything I've done? Or was it like unlike anything you've done, what was that sort of realization that this is more than just undergrad, it's requires more time.

Nick Moustakas: 16:40

Driving home from orientation the very first. day. It was, I was going through it. I was like, I was ready to, I was already ready to leave.

Miguel Sanchez : 16:50

Oh

Nick Moustakas: 16:50

I left orientation, literally the first day of orientation thinking this is just not for me. And.

Miguel Sanchez : 16:57

and

Nick Moustakas: 16:59

I think, the people they brought in to speak were all very, good. And, they brought in students which was good. Gave you some good insight for me. That insight just scared the hell outta me. And I thought this was just gonna be crazy, right? I didn't understand how the, there was the curve, right?

Miguel Sanchez : 17:22

And

Nick Moustakas: 17:22

That scares everybody. And they really pushed on how there all, there's all these readings every night, you're gonna have all these readings. And it really just, I think, scared me a bit. And I didn't think I could keep up with all of that. Yeah, it was the leaving orientation that I was like, oh man, what did I get myself into?

Miguel Sanchez : 17:49

There are instances when, working in admissions, I've seen. people who will drop and they just decide, this is definitely not for me. And we understand why when you started going through your classes and doing your readings, were you one of those students who studied as a group? Did you study on your own? How did you get and push through that? The material and the readings, because the readings the, forget about the time you spend reading, but the readings themselves are just very challenging because it's, the language is that it's very different. was that process of getting through being successful? Was it mostly on your own? Did you rely on other peers, Dean, scholars? What was that process like for you?

Nick Moustakas: 18:34

Yeah. So for me, I was definitely, I definitely read on my own, studied on my own. Frankly, during my whole first semester, honestly, I was a foot out the door. I was not planning on going back after the first semester, so I really didn't put in. The effort that I should have during my first semester. And so I ended up waiting a long time to start studying for finals, which I, any perspective first year law students, please don't do that. It's just not in your best interests, in my opinion. It worked out fine. I was able to push through and get it done and I did. Good enough considering considering that I waited so long to start studying. But that was a challenge, waiting till the end to realize that, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stay, it wasn't until probably two weeks before finals that I was committed to staying after the first semester. And so I, so that's when I decided to put in the effort. But. That was the biggest part, was just, finding, okay, how do I do enough to just get by here At least and save face because like I said, I was a foot out the door the whole time.

Miguel Sanchez : 19:57

When through this process of, doubting and, maybe leaving law school a certain point, did you communicate that to your parents? How was that?

Nick Moustakas: 20:08

Yeah, so I was. Completely open about it. I told my fiance I was my, now my now fiance, she was, we weren't engaged at the time, but I told her, I, I think I'm done. I told my parents, I'm done. I'm not doing this. This is crazy. It's not gonna work out. And they were just, very supportive. Frankly, they were, they said, oh, if you don't think you, you can do it, then don't do it. Don't make a decision that you're gonna regret later on. But they reassured me that they weren't telling me that because they also thought I couldn't do it. It was, they wanted me to know they knew I had the ability to push through and to, it'll go away eventually. These scary feelings will go away eventually. And eventually you'll find your footing and you'll hit a groove and it'll all be okay. And they were a hundred percent but they were completely supportive if I wanted to make the choice to, to not go through with it.

Miguel Sanchez : 21:16

something that I hear from students, especially as they go into their second year. I don't know that it happens going into your second year, your 2L Year year, but for many students that's when I notice it. In some ways it something clicks, and wanna say there's some sort of like magic, I don't wanna put it that way, but there's something that happens in the process that you finally get it it seems less overwhelming than it was during your first semester. What would you say for you was that moment, or what do you think clicked that you felt? Okay, I understand you mentioned getting to a groove. When did you feel like you had a better understanding of what was going on

Nick Moustakas: 22:01

Like you said, It was. the very beginning of my two year?

Miguel Sanchez : 22:06

Even during

Nick Moustakas: 22:07

My second semester of my first year, it was still new. I think I enjoyed the classes a little more. I think I found the classes more interesting. I think I, what is it near second semester? It's contracts, property Comm Law, and le and, legal writing. I think I found those topics a little more interesting and they jelled with me a little more. But it wasn't until my second semester, my second year, first semester that I felt extremely comfortable. I was taking evidence with Professor Griffin and. It just clicked with me. Evidence just clicked with me and it was the first class that I felt like I knew what I was doing. It's just something about the way you applied the rules that just felt natural to me. And it just worked. It just clicked in my brain and I was able to. Take that confidence and build on it. And my grades greatly improved from my from my first year. And I really think evidence was like the first class that gave me some confidence to, to think okay, I can do this. Like I was completely comfortable at that point.

Miguel Sanchez : 23:26

For our prospective students or just anybody who may be interested in law school. Nick mentioned a few courses and as a one LE as a one L student in the first year, one L first year, we use the terms interchangeably. You are assigned the same classes and everyone takes the same courses. They are the foundational courses that not only are and are vital for law school, but they're also part of the bar exam, which, we'll, I wanna touch on that in a moment. And then second and third year, you start taking courses that interest you depending on what you wanna pursue or just general electives that you wanna learn about different topics. And on that note, and we haven't talked about this yet, what area of law. Were you interested at the time and are you practicing the area of law that you came in thinking about, what was that process of deciding, what interests, what area of law versus what you're doing now? Yeah,

Nick Moustakas: 24:29

so I think when I came into law school I wanted to do corporate law stuff I think I found it interesting and. How that translated. Now I work in a general practice firm we handle everything which includes some corporate work. So I, I do, we do real estate. We do estate administration, estate planning municipal law just kind of everything, right? It's not what I imagined doing, like when I first came to law school to an extent, but I don't know. If many people stay on the same,

Miguel Sanchez : 25:09

mm-hmm.

Nick Moustakas: 25:10

do the same, follow the path that they wanted to do. I don't know why I wanted to do corporate law, frankly. I think it just sounded great, but yeah, I didn't end up following that path, but I think that's, I think that's extremely common.

Miguel Sanchez : 25:24

No, it's more common than even when I came in, into the admissions world. I've heard, and even recently as we are preparing the next class, is I wanna pursue this area of law and the very, very keen on it and I'm glad to see that. And we often do just advise, hey, that might be an interest that will stick with you. But also be open-minded to other practices as you go through law school for many reasons. It could be just the economy is not favorable to the area of law that you're interested, or you might just find other interests as you take classes or as you meet professors. One of the things that I wanna emphasize, and I wanna get your take on this, how was the process of mentorship? Because that is a big, I find that's a big element that. Help students get through law school, especially as a first gen student. What was the process and how did you find mentors in law school? Who did you go to for support when you needed additional guidance?

Nick Moustakas: 26:28

That's a great question. I didn't, I had a great mentor. I had Stephanie Dedo. She was she teaches in the ASAP program and she, and the bar classes and things like that. I remember I had a class with her during my second year, my first semester. And I knew that she was knowledgeable on kind of the whole. Overall law school experience. She wasn't, it was like a professor who was teaching one of the big classes who, she was a good mentor in just talking about the process. And I think she was great. She was always there to take a question when I had it. So she was a good mentor. And then I also think I had a friend who is from the same area as me in Duchess County. We were in law school together. We met during our orientation week. And he had a similar kind of experience as me, I think, where, he was the first generation law student didn't know many.

Miguel Sanchez : 27:35

attorney.

Nick Moustakas: 27:36

And so he was always good to just talk to about, like all that's going on, like all the experiences that we were experiencing together.'cause we took a lot of classes together and just, not. Being it was good to have a friend that was in a similar spot. So he wasn't, I wouldn't say he was a mentor, but it was just a great person to talk to about, all the new experiences.'cause like I said we really just

Miguel Sanchez : 28:03

were

Nick Moustakas: 28:05

not experience at all with Knowing attorneys or networking and things like that. So it was good to, to have that person as well.

Miguel Sanchez : 28:14

One of the things that I've noticed about students as far as building camaraderie, all law students are sectioned. In other words, when you arrive, have the class, whether it's a hundred ten, two hundred ten, whatever the number is, and you're typically divided into sections. And that's a common practice in all law schools. And I find that students who are in the same section tend to really bond. Especially with shared experiences and that bond goes even after law school and you go through your process and then there's a bar exam, so you graduate. You have that moment of attending commencement and celebrating with your families. But then unlike other graduate degrees, it doesn't end there. There's still the bar exam if you want to practice law and that usually it's shortly after graduation. Tell me about your bar prep process, because that in and of itself, it's a big deal. It your ability to practice law really hangs on that. the bar preparation like for you and how was that those moments leading up to taking the bar exam?

Nick Moustakas: 29:26

Yeah, so for me was a little unorthodox. I knew that the first year. Subjects were not going to be my strong suit. like I said, I was a foot out the door right for at least the first semester, and I just was, I felt that I did not have a good grasp on those subjects. So I started as soon as the bar courses opened up in March. And it wasn't just it wasn't just, do a little bit here and do a little bit there I was full-time pretty much. To the extent I could be while I was still in class. We had about a month left or so, so I was when I wasn't in school, I was studying for the bar. That was about late March, I think. And for people that don't know, typically you start around graduation, which is towards the end of May, mid. And it's about 10 weeks of studying, but I just knew I was going to spend a lot of time on those subjects that I, that those core subjects that I didn't, that I just didn't feel confident in. And and so I started pretty early. And the good part of that was it gave me a ton of time to be comfortable with. Not understanding something, having to go back and relearn it if I needed to. And I felt, by the end of it, I just felt like I, I couldn't do any more, and not from a being tired standpoint, but just I just didn't know what else to do anymore. Like I've, I had just done so much by the last, week before the test, I. I just ran out of things. I was starting to do essays over again and things like that because I was, I just over prepared, but I was happy that I did.

Miguel Sanchez : 31:20

this, what you are describing is really important and how, starting your, you basically, you started Bar Prep, as you said, much earlier than what's typical. that is a big point because you knew where your needed to improve. And so that's a good way to approach it because there, there's students that could say, Hey, I'll Bar Prep will take care of that for me. But it's really important that as a mature person to say, Hey, I really struggle in this part. I need to address it because challenging about the bar among. Besides the content itself is you sit for the bar exam if you take it in July, and then you don't get your score until October or November, October, November. So you have all those months where you're just waiting and you don't know what's gonna happen, then if you don't pass, then you have to go through the process again. the winter. So taking that approach was really smart. And then, and all of you who are listening make a special note to that, that when you're in law school, be very frank and honest with yourself and say, Hey, this is what I need to work on. And do it as we get to as, as we start closing. Nick, one of the things that I've, I hear regularly, and I heard this yesterday during commencement, the idea that law school. a transformative experience. do you think law school transform you

Nick Moustakas: 32:54

In a lot of ways definitely not the same one. I think I'm, I think I'm a little more serious than I was for better or for worse, who knows, but that's one thing I, and I, and the other is that I think I, they tell you it's gonna happen. You don't think it's gonna happen. It happens, I think differently. I really do. And I can't explain it. Maybe it's more analytical. You look at everything with a question mark in your head. You question everything. At least I, do. I look at every situation and I look at both sides, and I think it really. Does law school really does do that? I think it's just gotta be the cases. Reading those cases you see just how the judges write. They're for the most part, they usually, they analyze both sides when the judges write opinions. I think that just trains you to always look at it like that. So I think that's definitely something where, you know, it just, it changes the way you think. They tell you it's going to happen. You always hear it and you're like, no, what do you mean it's gonna change the way I think. What does that even mean? And it does, you think differently.

Miguel Sanchez : 34:13

What was your favorite part law school?

Nick Moustakas: 34:19

I think one learning was. is just. Fun gosh, go and tell high school me that, he is probably laugh in your face. But it's fun. I found the material interesting. And then I, the other thing was being a dean scholar, I was a dean scholar for evidence in my last year. And that was probably like just the best experience that I had during law school. Itself, I, I also Intern at the firm that I work at now, and that was a fantastic experience as well. But as far as like in school, being a Dean Scholar was my favorite part. I just loved teaching the subject, evidence. It was by far my favorite subject. I, and I was passionate about, helping other people learn it. Who, evidence is a hard subject for a lot of people. It's, they don't, for me, I thought it was, it just clicked in my brain. For other people it does the opposite. And I loved helping other people learn how to get it to click.

Miguel Sanchez : 35:22

what is a Dean scholar?

Nick Moustakas: 35:24

So Dean Scholar is someone who, it holds sessions each week for a particular professor and a particular subject. So typically your professors and your, especially in your first year will you'll only have them for one subject. So all my professors were different in my first year. So each professor has a dean scholar for a particular class. So for me, I was Professor Griffin's evidence Dean Scholar. And they hold a weekly weekly session or two weekly sessions where the class can attend and you go over the material, that was covered the week prior to help reinforce that material and to answer any questions that people would feel. Nervous about asking the professor.'cause they can, there's 75 people typically I think, around in each class, people will get nervous about asking a question in front of everyone or asking the professor a question. So people will come and, ask ask questions or, We'd go over the material. We would do hypos to, make sure we're understanding the material. And that's the gist of it, like a, like a class tutor is how I would describe it.

Miguel Sanchez : 36:32

Great. For those of you who are considering pace Dean Scholar is actually very unique to Pace and it's one of the ways that we support our students academically. And what do you miss about law school? Now you're working, and I suppose you're not doing a lot of studying. Maybe you're doing professional development and stuff, but what do you miss about. Law school generally?

Nick Moustakas: 36:55

I think the, I'm learning every day at work, right? Because I'm. A new attorney. Every day is a new, I'm learning something new. Whether it's about professionalism or how to how to be a better writer or just from experience. I have very experienced attorneys that, that I work with. So I do learn every day, but it's a, but I've missed I do the really intellectual Learning part of law school. I think learning a new subject is fun. Especially when you have a great professor. There's just, you are, you're not, I wouldn't say you're excited to go to class, let's be honest, but you don't mind going to that class, that's a great thing. And I miss that. Learning a new subject and getting it, understanding it, that's a great feeling. When it clicks, a lot of law school classes, and this is good information for people who are considering it's not like in, in undergrad and like in high school, you do things by units. You do that in law school too, but in law school, for me at least the whole semester, you're just like, how is this gonna fit together? Like high school and undergrad, the units are like all separate and they really don't all fit together in the end. And so you can understand each individual unit as you go. But in law school, I, at least in my experience, the whole semester, you are just wondering. What in the world is going on and then you're, then you study for your finals and all of a sudden you see how all of these things intertwine and you zoom out and you understand it. Maybe during the semester you were just like, I don't understand what in the world this means. I don't get this. And then at the end it all fits like a puzzle. It's. And it's a good feeling when you finally get to that point and you did all your studying and you feel confident going into a test and you just understand it all. That's a great, that's a great feeling. I.

Miguel Sanchez : 39:18

I like how you explained it that when you look at it individually zooming in, you don't get to see how it fits. But once you zoom out and see the big picture, then you see how it fits and maybe you see patterns. And that's great because for those who are considering law school or who are going through law school. It's important to have that focus, but also step back and take a mindful approach. Not a mindful, but really an intentional approach of, let me see how this all fits in, and be intentional about it so that you don't just get stuck and then you don't see where this is going. And maybe that could be a reason why many students get frustrated and even end up leaving. So I'm glad you mentioned that. To close, Nick, what does the future look like?

Nick Moustakas: 40:08

Yeah. So I think, like I said, the firm I work at, I, the attorneys are the, just, there's a lot of experience there. And they're great to work with. And I, I hope I'm I plan to be peer for a long time at this firm. There's a lot of growth potential and just a lot to learn from from some very well-respected attorneys. So I think, for me, I think as far as growth, like I, I just, I want to get to the point where I feel. I totally know what I'm doing. I think it's normal when you start anything. And I've been there for a little, a little less than a year now, but you're still new and you're still new to practice and I just hope, I can grow into a better, a great lawyer and a complete lawyer who's, versed. And I think the. People who work at this firm get, definitely give me the opportunity to do that. Because that's how I would describe how I would describe the partners at this firm are just, complete attorneys. They're not just good at one thing or focus on one thing. They have a lot of experience and a lot of things, and I hope to to learn from them.

Miguel Sanchez : 41:20

Nick, thank you again. I'm so happy that you shared your experiences and you were so open. I'm glad that during those moments when you felt like were ready to quit, that you didn't, and you now you're seeing how worth it was for you to stick it out for the three years and through the bar exam. So Nick, thank you very much. I appreciate your time. For those of you listening, thank you for following and watch out for the next episode. Thank you, Nick.

Nick Moustakas: 41:46

Thank you.