First Gen 101

In Conversation with Jonathan Campozano: Law School Lessons and Life

β€’ Miguel Sanchez Robles β€’ Season 2 β€’ Episode 3

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🎧 Ever wondered what it's like to navigate law school as a first-gen student? Join us on the latest episode of "First Gen 101" as Jonathan Campozano shares his personal experiences and tips for future law students. Don’t miss it! βš–οΈ #LawSchool #FirstGenSuccess

In this episode of First Gen 101, host Miguel Sanchez interviews Jonathan Campozano, a practicing immigration attorney. Jonathan shares insights into his journey through law school, how he managed the challenges as a first-generation student, and the importance of finding supportive mentors and student groups. He discusses his work in the immigration clinic under Professor Vanessa Merton, his internships, and offers practical advice for preparing for and succeeding in law school. Tune in to hear about Jonathan's transformative experience and his career path in immigration law.


00:00 Introduction 

01:05 Meet Jonathan Campuzano

01:40 Jonathan's Journey to Law School

05:34 Challenges and Preparation for Law School

08:03 First Year Law School Experiences

12:25 Finding Community and Support

17:24 Immigration Clinic and Mentorship

21:01 Memorable Experiences and Career Impact

24:10 Advice for First Generation Law Students

28:30 Conclusion and Final Tips


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Jonathan Campozano:

I would recommend if, if you are going to law school, search for student groups that, that align with your experience and see how you can, can interact with others. Because if you don't, law school can sometimes be lonely and it's very stressful at times. And so interacting with others, even if you don't have the time, make the time. Professor Merton somehow was going in a million directions, but found the time to focus on you, and that's what she was able to do for me. She was invested in my growth, not just as an attorney, as a person, always engaging and thoughtful and provoking conversation, whether it was at early in the morning or late at night, past midnight sometimes, but she would always. Find a way to to be there for you, to be there to show the way of how to be a great immigration attorney.

Miguel Sanchez :

Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of First Gen 1 0 1. My name is Miguel Sanchez and today I have Jonathan Campuzano. Jonathan, thank you for joining us today.

Jonathan Campozano:

Thank you So much for having me, Miguel.

Miguel Sanchez :

This is another episode focusing on the experience as a first generation student in a law school. I met Jonathan at the Elizabeth Hobbs School of Law, And at the time. He was, in the immigration clinic and Jonathan, let's start with that. What are you doing now? Are you practicing immigration law?

Jonathan Campozano:

Yeah, I'm practicing immigration law now. I began my career after law school in immigration law. But in between, from when I began to now, I actually worked in government for some time at the state level and then at the local level as well.

Miguel Sanchez :

So we'll go deeper into that, later on, but one of the fascinating things about earning a JD is it's such a robust degree that you can apply it and practice in different areas. you can do different things. And Jonathan, I'm sure he'll tell us more about that later on. But let's start. Why did you go to law school? At what point in your life did you decide you wanted to be an attorney?

Jonathan Campozano:

probably my third year of college. For the second or third year the, I had done a few internships at different law firms. An accounting law firm an adoption law firm. But not until I did an internship at an immigration law firm. It was, is when I realized, okay, I had a personal interest in immigration because of my family background. My father came to the United States from Ecuador. My grandparents on my mother, on my mother's side came here from Puerto Rico. And so I always had a personal interest, in my family story, and it's immigration story. Now it was something where, okay, I see a future where I apply, I can connect my interest personally and professionally. And so after I interned at an immigration law firm, that's when my interest peaked and I knew.

Miguel Sanchez :

Did you have any role models who were attorneys that you looked up to? How did you get mentorship in finding the right school or preparing for law school?

Jonathan Campozano:

I did a lot of it on my own, honestly. My parents didn't go to law school. I don't have a lot of family here in the United States. And so my network, family wise, to try to get insight professionally was very limited. So my mentorship came through the places where I worked, whether it was the attorney at the immigration law firm, Robin bca, and then later on when I was in law school, Professor Vanessa Merton, tho, those were really the two core mentors that I had throughout my law school experience. But outside of that going through, looking at law schools, figuring out where I wanted to apply, where I wanted to go. It it was really a trial and error figuring it out on my own,

Miguel Sanchez :

Your parents did not go to law school. They're not lawyers. And so when you told them you were going to law school or you were thinking about going to law school, what did they say to you? what was their reaction? How did they to that?

Jonathan Campozano:

very excited. Especially in Hispanic culture, being a lawyer is so respected in in Latin America lawyers are referred to as doctor where here in the United States, we hold doctors to, in high regard and so they, they were excited. But, Outside of the excitement and encouragement, figuring out the ways or how to go, it it was a lot on me. I had the support financially and emotionally but figuring out exactly finding the path, a lot of it was searches. and videos like these in the

Miguel Sanchez :

So really the heart of this podcast, and I've mentioned this at other episodes, it's to bridge that gap. And as you mentioned really the goal is for future students or prospective students to look back and listen to this conversation and find the information and some of the experiences to help them make the best choices. And so as you were exploring law school and preparing for law school, what was the hardest part of preparing for law school? For those of you listening who are interested in law school, there are many requirements What was the hardest part of preparing for law school?

Jonathan Campozano:

Definitely studying for the LSAT and being dedicated at it. I did a program that was actually hosted at Elisabeth Haub School of Law, which was the focus approach which was every Saturday for a few months I believe from 9:00 AM to 2:00 PM just hammering down on the different parts of the LSAT. But then the responsibility was on me applying that practice throughout the week. And so that was definitely a big challenge. Just figuring out where am I gonna get the best offer based on figuring out how that's calculated? The LSAT score goes into it, the GPA goes into it and figuring out. If I do this, how, how can I figure out how to pay for this

Miguel Sanchez :

did you get a chance to visit other law schools? How did that process look like for you in selecting the school?

Jonathan Campozano:

I don't think I visited any other law schools except pace. Now, when we talk about this now, maybe I should have. but like you said, I'm from Westchester. I went to college in Westchester. I grew up in Westchester. And so it, it just. Made the most sense for what I wanted to do. I went to SUNY schools in part thinking, okay, if I do law school, I want to go to law school at, with no debt or as little debt as possible. And so thinking about making a commute to the city or moving to the city. It just wasn't the right Fit for me at that time. And so pace in terms of proximity and then compared with the other schools, the offers that I received it was one of the best ones. And so that definitely helped me

Miguel Sanchez :

One of the. things that we highlight for prospective law students is, and I, and you mentioned this just now, it's the importance of visiting schools. If you are applying to different schools and the schools are not within your area, or not within Distance where you can just drive or take public transportation. You will be living in this area for the next three or four years. So it's really important that you visit as many schools as you can, because it will help you see the area where you're gonna live and you wanna be sure that you make the best decision. when you started your first semester, at what point did you realize This is not like undergrad. What was the most challenging part of being a law student in your first semester?

Jonathan Campozano:

So I, I went into law school pretty blind. Like, I I didn't know much. I understood, three years before law school started, I was emailing asking if I can join a clinic, not realizing that classes are selected for you in the first year. And so when I realize it's not like undergrad you get called on unexpectedly, law school uses. Most professors use the Socratic method. You get called on randomly, put on the spot, and so that can be very intimidating. then once you're in your second year, your third year, you realize As stressful as that can be, it's building you for practice in the court. But in my first semester, I would hear my professors talk about, Oh, Thanksgiving break or around that time is the best time to start preparing your outline. And I would hear about the outline hear about the outline. and. I was afraid of asking to and seeming I don't know what I'm what I'm doing when everyone else is reacting okay, yeah, definitely gonna prepare my outline. I had no idea what the outline was but luckily I was invited into a study group. To prepare the outline still at that point, when we have the invitation down, I have no idea what we're gonna do when we meet up to to prepare the outline. And I realized it was just a fancy way to say study. guide. So, when I look back now, I should have just asked and just even if it was to a classmate, et cetera, but you. Everyone you're trying to do your best. You're trying to you. have three years to impress your professors, your fellow students. But I wish I would've just asked instead of going through September, October and of November, not understanding what it is that we should have been preparing.

Miguel Sanchez :

I wanna expand expand on that that point about asking for help. And when I talk to law students, typically around Thanksgiving or October, and I see their face has changed, that excitement that they came in August turns into panic and you see that change. And generally. I'll ask them, what's going on. And usually they will tell me more or less, there's so many things that I didn't know coming in that I'm figuring out now and not just figuring out what I have to do, but also learning the material. And a lot of times, and I do this often, I tell them just ask for help as faculty, ask other students, what do you think is, why do you think it's so hard to ask for help?

Jonathan Campozano:

You are going into an environment that maybe you're not familiar with, and you don't want to appear at least to yourself, clueless, And then appear clueless to others. And so you just stay quiet and maybe this is maybe my subjective point of view, but you just don't want to come off as you don't know what you're doing. But I remember during orientation. I would see professors, especially during we're taking attendance or if they would recognize a last name. Oh, is so and so your brother or your cousin or your uncle me. And meanwhile, I'm there they don't, they have no idea who I am but at least those individuals. They had some sort of resource. They had a physical Google that they can go to ask, Hey, when I go to my first semester, what should I do? They tho those students already had outlines sent to them before the semester even started. so yeah, that, that's. That's the difficult thing. And you just wanna make sure that the opportunity to attend law school, you make the most of it. And I think sometimes we put so much pressure on ourselves that We don't think we can go up for a breath of air and ask for

Miguel Sanchez :

As you were going through your first year in law school you mentioned this in the beginning, you joined this study group. Did you find other students that were also struggling? And how did you find other people that were also struggling? And how were you able to help each other? How did finding your community work out for you? At least during your first year?

Jonathan Campozano:

Thankfully, that study group stuck with me through the first semester and the second semester because we were in the same section which was another thing that I had no idea about going into law school. You're separated into sections for your first year. And so we de we were definitely in solidarity in terms of struggling and trying to figure out the best way to study but, simple things like splitting up, Okay? You you put together this portion of the outline of the this section of the syllabus. And if you are better at this. of the course then you go up to the whiteboard and explain it to us and just talking things through and being, I guess you can say in, in a safe space where you aren't afraid to ask the dumb question, or if you don't understand something, feeling comfortable to say, you know what, I don't get this do the rest of you understand this so that you can help me understand.

Miguel Sanchez :

In that process of helping each other it sounds like you found this close-knit group that support each other, understood the challenges that were similar. In that process, how do you balance, and this is something that that I always wonder'cause I didn't go to school myself, but I spent enough, enough time with law students that I've seen this situation, how do you balance those friendships or those let's call'em friendships with that competitiveness of law school?

Jonathan Campozano:

I guess I was lucky in the sense that my group we didn't have that where we were going at each other's necks. We I think we sincerely and genuinely wanted the other to to do the best as possible. But I do remember that there were others who would isolate themselves and study on their own and not really appear as a team member. But. That was their prerogative. They wanted to just gun for first place and not associate with others. But whereas I felt comfort, comfort in understanding or hearing others have similar struggles to And

Miguel Sanchez :

We had a, an admitted student who came to the law school. And one of the things that she asked when we were talking about the bar exam, she looked at me and said, what is that? What is a bar exam? And. I explained it and try to help them see why is that why that's important. You needed to pass the bar. You need to pass the bar exam to get license to eventually practice law. What were some other things that you learned throughout your one L year, your first year in law school that you didn't realize you had to do to either practice law or to graduate I

Jonathan Campozano:

I learned that most professors, your grade is based on just the final exam and in part attendance, there was homework, but it wasn't necessarily being calculated into your grade. And at least in undergrad, the difference was where you're doing homework, you're getting small quizzes. So you get a good sense of your progress, but really you don't find out sometimes with certain professors how you're doing in the course until you get your final exam. That, that was something that I didn't realize in the first year. But then even things like understanding there isn't just the bar exam that you need to be able to get your license in New York. There's the NPRE, the NYLE and so even figuring that out when it's like you thought oh, the one big thing is the bar exam, but there's also this that you need to be able to get your license.

Miguel Sanchez :

to those of you who are listening and are wondering about these exams. I'm going to leave links on the show notes to that will take you to the New York State Board of Examiners so you can learn more about these exams and why they're important. So we finished one L year, you finish your first year of law school, you go into your second year, did your interest change? You came in thinking about immigration law, did that interest remain? I know for many students they'll often realize, okay, I didn't think this area of law that I was interested in is what I thought it was. Did that change that for you? And if it didn't, what did you do in your second and third year to harness that interest or to develop skills for that interest?

Jonathan Campozano:

So I was lucky enough to be allowed to participate in the immigration clinic. As a second year student, generally the three Ls get priority because they're on their way out. But luckily professor Merton picked me and allowed me to do the clinic in my second year and then my third year. But what I, before we jump to past the first year something that and your question reminded me, I was working for two hours in between classes. So the schedule was set up. where you have a 9:00 AM class and like a1 or 2:00 PM class. and I was going to an immigration law firm in between looking back now, I probably shouldn't have done that to be able to focus on my studies. that's just how invested I was in wanting to pursue a career in immigration law. And I think that in part was what allowed Professor Merton to feel comfortable enough to allow me to join the clinic as a second year student. So that interest remained throughout it was an amazing experience. Learned a lot And, probably the, the, there's a, there's a saying that, The first year of law school is the hardest year. The second year is the busiest year and the third year, you

Miguel Sanchez :

That is true. And having worked in the clinic Working for faculty and working with law students. I do recall a lot of three Ls just wanting to leave, but I'm not gonna go into detail this point. Now you are in the immigration clinic, you are working under professor Vanessa Merton. How was it working with professor Merton? How was she like a mentor? How did she help you in pursuing your interest for immigration law?

Jonathan Campozano:

So when I was either interviewing for the clinic or when I was. When I joined the clinic, there was a brief conversation with Professor Merton where she wanted to understand your weaknesses, your strengths, what do you want to improve? And I always had a fear of public speaking, and I shared that with her. Little did I know when I shared that with her every time we had seminar. she would go out of her way to call on me every single class, even for the smallest thing, even if she knew the answer or someone else already answered some way, somehow she would find a way me, not realizing that was so that I can practice speaking before a group. Professor Merton called on me so much that I got a gift or I received a gift during a gift exchange during the holidays in my first year. And it a, It's this ball right here. It has a picture. It's not that clear, but it's a picture of Vanessa Press Merton. And it says there, Jonathan with a question mark. That's how much she would call on me during class. She somehow was going in a million directions, but found the time to focus on you, and that's what she was able to do for me. She was invested. In my growth, not just as an attorney, but as a person always engaging and thoughtful and provoking conversation. Whether it was at in the morning or early, late at night, past midnight sometimes but she would always find a way to, to be there for you to be there, to show the way of how to be a great immigration attorney.

Miguel Sanchez :

What was your most memorable? experience As a student intern in the immigration clinic.

Jonathan Campozano:

Definitely a couple things. Definitely all the times where some way, somehow Professor Merton would be there until very late at night. and despite having done so much work, you just end up having a conversation about anything, whether it was politics, whether it was family whether it was schoolwork or anything. Those random moments that I can't even, I can't remember specifically, but just, I just remember always being able to have a conversation with her at the clinic. But definitely the the trips that we took to Dilley, Texas. That was definitely one of the most memorable experiences where we went to close to the Texas border and volunteered at a detention center where we helped women and children prepare for. their credible fear interviews, so they, they're being interviewed by asylum officers about the reasons for why they entered the United States. And if they passed the interview, they could continue their process in trying to pursue asylum here in the United States. And those were very grueling days, 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM Where we and I think it was maybe 45 minutes increments where we were able to interview and prepare the woman and children. And we did that for, we were there for about a week, but it was Monday through Friday. And so that was an experience made possible by Professor Merton. And never forget the feeling, especially cause I had the opportunity to go three times, but definitely the feeling after the first time where I think most, if not everyone in the group really felt life put into perspective and how lucky we are sometimes and we don't

Miguel Sanchez :

And how did you make the connection to finding your first job? Was that instrumental in getting your first job? How did it help the process?

Jonathan Campozano:

It's one thing when you're here in New York and you meet with potential clients or with your clients, and there maybe three months, six months, maybe a year removed from whatever they may have been fleeing. but at the border the woman and children may have suffered before coming to the detention center could have happened. or a couple of weeks prior. And so the detail is much more intense because the memories are much more vivid. It definitely renewed my interest or deepened my interest in wanting to become an immigration attorney. That's me to pursue a fellowship with Immigrant Justice Corps that Professor Merton. Really was a driving force in helping me get that fellowship. And so, yeah, that, that experience definitely, like I said, deepened my interest in becoming an immigration attorney and wanting to help some of the most vulnerable.

Miguel Sanchez :

So for first generation law students it's the preparing for law school that's new. And that's a challenge just preparing for law school. Then there's the actual law school Part, going to class, the cold calling that you mentioned, outlining that in and of itself presents challenges for first generation law students. And now you are leaving law school, you're graduating. What are some of the things that, looking back, you, you want to advise first generation students as there. preparing for their career? Whether it's interview tips, networking, what are some things that first generation law students should know?

Jonathan Campozano:

I would say the professors want to help you more than you think. You see them, especially when you're fresh into law schools, almost these big intimidating figures. When in reality, when They're there. And especially teaching brand new students because they want to. make an impact on these new students who are pursuing a law degree. And I I would say that definitely, I wish I would've approached my professors more in those moments of doubt and insecurity. But even before getting to law school, I wish I would have reached out to current students at the law schools. I wish I would've. Attended more tours and speak to other law schools. I wish I would've spoken to members of the Lawa at the law school to get their feedback. And I eventually did. I would've done that before going into law school, especially since I didn't have anyone to speak with. about that experience. I did know a couple of attorneys from the internships, their law school experience was many years ago and different from what was happening at the time I attended. they

Miguel Sanchez :

So if you're thinking about applying to law school. As Jonathan said, connect with students, connect with faculty. When I see a student who has questions, when I see a prospective student who has questions about a program or a career, I do my best to connect them with The community, because they can really as Jonathan said, a real time, so to speak, real time advice because they're in law school. I see that law school can be a transformative experience. how would you say going to law school transform your life?

Jonathan Campozano:

I think in my day-to-day life, sometimes it's difficult to switch my brain from lawyer mode and turn it off and not be so analytical. in my personal life, sometimes. I'll a apply, say, in a conversation, if something was omitted, Oh then the implication must be that they meant this. where it, They didn't say it. So then it's not what they said, but lawyer mode takes my brain into that, especially in my personal life. I would say it's J just changing me personally. I think my most cherished me cherished memories are. The time that I spent, and I mentioned earlier Lawa, but I didn't explain what it was. It was, it's the Latin American Law Students Association at the law school's, a student group. And just The time that I spent with them and being able to spend time, share moments with. Students of similar backgrounds not just ethnically, but also personally, they also didn't have family members who went to law school. And just dealing with this with similar struggles. So that, that was definitely, and I would recommend if you are going to law school search for student groups that that align with your experience and see how you can can interact with others because if you don't law school can sometimes be lonely and it's very stressful at times. And so interacting with others, even if you don't

Miguel Sanchez :

before we close, is there anything that we haven't discussed any tips you wanna leave for the audience today?

Jonathan Campozano:

when I for the bar exam they set a schedule nine to five. I was a morning person. So I would set it earlier. But my piece of advice, if for the day you get to the bar exam is during your lunch break or the breaks that you give yourself. pick a sitcom Because the episodes are short. And so if you give yourself 40 minutes to an hour, you can get two to three episodes and it feel like you're watching a lot. And so if you noticed Dwight over my shoulder, the show that I watched during the bar exam was The Office. And so that definitely helped me trick me mentally to feel like I was giving myself a lot of free time when I actually was just giving myself the normal amount. of time.

Miguel Sanchez :

So I guess we can say the office led you to your in an office. Jonathan, thank you for sharing your story with us. Thank you for your time. And for all of you catch the next episode, make sure to subscribe. Thank you for being here, Jonathan.

Jonathan Campozano:

Thank you.