Miguel Sanchez : 0:10

Welcome to First Gen 1 0 1, the podcast where first generation graduates share their stories and career tips. I'm your host, Miguel Sanchez. In this episode, John Manna shares his remarkable journey from life as a performing musician to graduating from law school. Whether you're exploring a career pivot or need inspiration, John's story will motivate you to keep pushing forward. Hello everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the first gen 1 0 1 podcast. Today we have John Manna. John, thank you for being here today. John, I mentioned this a few minutes ago before we went live. And one of the things that really excited me about this session is that you are also a musician. Not only did you go to law school as a first gen student, but you're a musician. And it's just really a joy to see someone very passionate, not only about their education, but also about music. you play mainly guitar from what I understand. And I know you are also a songwriter. Before we go into that, why did you decide to go to law school? Go from music to then law school. How did that happen?

John Manna: 1:28

Yeah, I had been performing and writing and recording music for for most of my life, starting at a relatively young age. And for a while, that was what I would've said that I wanted to do. I guess for what it's worth going through my life high school and undergrad, I was always able to relatively balance my, Musical interests with whatever I was doing full I ended up going to undergrad in criminal justice. I went to, I actually, I went to Justice community college for two years after high school and majored in criminal justice. And then I ended up transferring to SUNY Newpaltz after two years at DCC, after getting my associates and there, I majored in sociology with concentration in criminology. So I was always. Interested academically in the more criminal justice and route whereas outside of school I had a very active creative as well. There's the whole stereotypical starting artist. There, There's a lot of merit to that and I have a lot of respect for people who have those sorts of creative ambitions and I go all in on that. And for whatever reason that just didn't really feel like that was what I should be doing. It didn't, I didn't really feel like that life was for me. People do it. For for some, maybe it's a bigger risk than others and maybe they get some success out of it. Maybe people who go all in on music. Because they're putting all of their eggs in one basket, they're able to put more work into it. And maybe that ends up paying off for some of them. something that I was thinking about a something interested in passion? Potentially make my chances better and would they pay off in the long run? And at the end of the day, I just didn't really feel like that was something that I wanted to do. I was still fortunately able to do what I wanted to do and get a lot of stuff done with my musical interests alongside me going to school and working and all of that. So I was thinking okay, like, I don't really think going all in on music is right I end my undergrad experience. with what I had majored in the thing is too, with me, a lot of my friends and a lot of the people that I was spending most of the time with most of my time with, they were all also musicians. So I was going off on my own, or at least it felt like I was in a lot of, in a lot of ways. Wanting to continue my education in it really felt like being, I was a first gen bachelor's grad as well, and it really did feel like uncharted territory. I didn't really know what I was doing when I was picking majors. I wasn't really, I would pick a major and then, af I would pick a major. It almost felt to get that out of the way. And then afterwards I would look up what are potential jobs that I could do with this. And it was towards the end of my time in undergrad when I started thinking to myself, okay I'm interested in law academically, but I am a musician and I also feel like that's a big part of my identity. And I was thinking what could I do? Outside of that what could I do that maybe incorporates a little bit of both? And I ended up at the time in undergrad, coming to the conclusion that I I thought that I was that I wanted to go and combine both of those passions in my life and go for entertainment law. And I remember talking to one of my professors at and pitching that idea to him. And he said he thought that was an excellent idea. Some people, maybe they think about wanting to go to law school their entire lives. And that's and that could be a very good thing for some people. In my case, it was the very last semester of undergrad, and it was in some cases, even the summer after undergrad was when I finally made the decision that I wanted to go to law school and ended up studying for the LSAT, signing up for the LSAT later that following year. Because I didn't make decision law school until my semester of undergrad, It's not like I was set up to start law school the following year. take a year off, figure out what even the LSAT was, figure out what law schools were potentially good options. And then ended up taking the year to study for the LSAT, which was another thing, another thing I was doing relatively which it didn't really feel like I had a lot of people to go do, to ask for questions about LSAT prep and all of that and what I should really be expecting, how valuable of a score should I be trying to go for how what are the best ways to study. Some of that was on me. I wasn't very Using the resources I had and going on the internet. So like I was just doing it on my own and yeah ended up taking the next year to study for the LSATs. I got a relatively average score on the LSAT the first time I could have taken it again and that's something that I would think about later too as well. Should I have taken it again? Should I have gotten a tutor? I really only Studied mostly by myself just in my local library in my hometown Did some research after that, ended up applying to a few schools and got into Pace Law School, which at the time I was living in Fishkill, New York. So that was about 50 minutes to an hour from Pace in White Plains. That was also towards the beginning of the pandemic at the time. So I knew that at least in the beginning of my law school career, it Yeah, then I ended up, fortunately getting into PACE and accepted for the following year. So I had a gap year in between finishing undergrad and law school. But honestly, I guess to kind of pinpoint, answer your question, it was just, I didn't, there was never a point in my life where I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. Even I decided I wanted to go to law school, one thing I would always hear people talk about is, okay, a law degree is useful even if you're not practicing law. And I see that a lot now, like a lot of my colleagues that I have now, having graduated, a lot of them are very talented in what they're doing. They're not all practicing attorneys. Some of them get into jobs with corporations or companies where their law degree is still a very valuable asset to their skillset Depending on what you on what your interests are, that can potentially be a valuable and worthwhile route to take for some people. So that was another thing I was thinking when I was gonna law school is okay. It seems like the way of thinking that it seems that you get from law school and a lot of the analytical reasoning skills and the way to issue spot, it seems like those sorts of skills are very valuable no matter what you do. So it I also have my musical passions that I can continue that feels like I can continue regardless lemme just keep my education going Lemme get a law degree that it seems like maybe i'll figure out I have other interests in this field that I maybe didn't know were there at first but either way, it seems like it'll be a worthwhile experience and it seems Skillset and experiences that could help me in my career in ways that maybe I'm not to see

Miguel Sanchez : 8:24

One of the things that jumps at me, and this is something that we tell prospective students, and that is the JD is going to give you, as you mentioned, the skills and the knowledge to apply that in different career paths. Whether it's litigation or in-house counsel, or other careers, having that JD is gonna give you those opportunities. In fact I keep up with alumni on LinkedIn and I can tell you that every other week someone has changed jobs gone somewhere else because partly you're able to do that with a JD. So it just gives you more versatility. And so during that gap year. What did you do besides preparing for the LSAT? Did you have a law related job? What were you doing in that, in that year?

John Manna: 9:16

So when I was finishing up undergrad actually not law related at all. I was working at a pizzeria for my entirety of the time in undergrad. I was working part-time at a pizzeria, I also worked briefly for a brewery at one point that was starting in my summer after finishing undergrad. And then, I didn't really have that much experience working in the legal industry before law school. I really didn't. Interned at a local courthouse during one of my final semesters of undergrad, But, I was in undergrad, I wasn't in law school at that point, so an internship at the courthouse what that really meant was I was just observing local small claims, and honestly and traffic ticket proceeding. It wasn't really something where I was, Getting much intellectual legal work experience and I think some of that probably came from me being a first gen or a perspective first gen law student at that point maybe I was telling someone else who wanted to go to law school and was thinking about studying for the LSAT, maybe I would suggest looking for some sort of courthouse work or law firm work whether it's part-time or just even as an unpaid intern to get some experience if they're able to do that. And I do think that's something that could be valuable. In my case, I really didn't get much experience like that before law school. I, during while I was studying for the LSATs I studied mostly during the day again at, The local library Monday through Friday. But aside from that, I was working at a brewery on weekends. And I also worked seasonally at the Michael at Michael Kors actually for that winter season. So I was doing those two things and I would tell people at those jobs about how I was studying for the LSAT. And they were all very excited for me on the journey that I was I didn't really get much legal experience. I didn't really have a fully grasp what I was really getting into at that point I was studying for the LSAT and that was getting me into the headspace for what it's worth, but as I'm sure, the LSAT itself, Doesn't really test substantively on really anything having to do with law. It's more of a standardized test that has to do with your, critical thinking and reading comprehension. But at the time it felt like a Hail Mary with me with me studying for the LSAT. I hadn't really had any real experience in the legal field aside from, I took the occasional Law class in in undergrad. And actually when I was at SUNY New Paltz, I took criminal law, which I didn't realize it at the time, but that professor who taught me criminal law at SUNY Newpaltz for undergrad actually ran it like a traditional law school class. Like they did the cold calling just holding up the attendance sheet, calling on a random name from the very beginning of the class. We were reading cases, and at the time, I was thinking, this guy's out of his mind. Why is who conducts in class like this? Little did I know that really have that much actual legal field experience prior to law school. And by the time I took the LSAT, it was that February during my gap year. And then March that following March, 2020, that was when that was when the COVID pandemic really started. And that was when at that point there was the stay at home policy. So there was, I going into law school, I A of me figuring out what attorneys do and what the actual legal profession requires that came with actually getting into law school and now.

Miguel Sanchez : 12:51

In adding to that point of not having much exposure And this is just general advice to prospective law students. If you can, as John said, have that law related job, if you decide to take the gap year, what I think what it really does is put you in a place where you can understand The legal culture, just like medicine and other fields, there's a culture, there's a way of doing things. So think about having that legal job so you can understand the culture that's in the legal space. So you're taking the LSAT. we're now have to be home for a relatively long time and then you start law school and it's an unusual time because if I recall properly at the time classes were set up in this schedule where you didn't go to class every day there was some sort of pattern that to be honest I don't remember What was the most challenging aspect of starting law school?

John Manna: 13:51

I remember first hearing what the term big law meant or what the term big law was probably a few weeks into my first semester. I didn't really know very much about What sizes and law firms really meant, what it really took to get to specific law firms versus others, what those law firms really looked at. I had no idea going into law school that I. by going to a specific law school or by not going to a certain law school, that alone was arguably making your journey or your prospects easier or harder than potentially others. That was something that was. Very new to me. Also the value in the potential value, depending on what your goals are in class rank, that was something that was also very new to me. I couldn't say that during undergrad I was a as invested of a student, frankly, I wouldn't have said that I was a very passionate student in undergrad. And that was because. I was in part because I didn't really know what I was doing at the time. I hadn't really, I was thinking much more short term. I hadn't really been thinking as much about my long term goals. So because of that, class rank wasn't really something that I ever really thought about in undergrad. And I was suddenly in law school, that was something that a lot of people were talking about. The curve I hadn't All of your study habits and how you looked at finals and how you thought about this semester in your first year specifically and I don't really remember hearing about that until orientation or maybe shortly after I got the Pace. And that wasn't really something that kind of clicked for me of what that really entailed for for your finals in law school until that were relatively surprising. And it did make it somewhat intimidating at times. One thing that you'll hear all the time in law school for various reasons is imposter syndrome. That was something that was the phrase that Certainly became part of my regular vocabulary going into law school was feeling like I you know, when you're when you go into law school when you start something that's even if you do have experience or even if people who have done it before, it's still very new. You're still getting thrust into a whole new group of people doing work that You've really had to do before again, even if you've worked in a law firm Most people will tell you that the work that attorneys do is very different than what you actually do in law school so just having to do that sort of dense case reading it, it's a very new experience even for people who Do know people or even if you've done the research and I've heard about what it's like, it's still something that's really new for you once you're doing it. And everyone remembers, I think, and everyone probably had, most people probably have this experience at the beginning of law school. As you start hearing about what other people are doing, maybe a few weeks into your first semester, you start hearing, oh, so and so's doing this many practice problems or so and so has is already starting to outline. And that's something where if you know nothing about law school, some of that could be a helpful wake up call of oh, maybe I should start thinking about. Maybe there is something that I should take from what this other person is doing. But one thing that I've that I learned in law school not even having to do substantively with law is the importance of trusting your own instincts. There. There are always, There are usually things that you can get from other people that are helpful. But at the end of the day, you have to you have trust that you know what's best you, because you've point where in law school You have trust that you have what it through And doesn't mean You should completely ignore what other people are doing but you also shouldn't let that stress you out at the same time you it's helpful to get advice and potentially borrow study habits and tactics from other people. But you have to, at the end of the day, always trust what you're doing too, and trust that You know what's best for you

Miguel Sanchez : 18:07

So in this process of feeling some sort of this imposter syndrome that you described, how did there, at any point, did you communicate that to your family? How was Your relationship with your family in relation to law school. Did you talk to them about this regularly? Was this something that you kept to yourself? How was that dynamic?

John Manna: 18:29

Interesting question. I think that one, one thing that made those feelings of imposter syndrome, I would say complicated or difficult to really solve or deal with was in part the fact that I was at the time I was commuting to law school from Fishkill. It was hybrid. So I was going in person two, maybe three times a week at most. And then the rest of the time was remote. And, relatively. soon into law school. I did start fortunately making friends at my class, but because of it being hybrid because of me commuting, it did really feel like I wasn't fully inculcated in the law school culture at that point. that's something that I think ended up really. It served in my favor really well once I started getting more involved in the community of law school, because then Once you start getting connecting with people and you're able to vent those sorts of feelings that you have, you'll find that a lot of people, like one of the, one of the solutions and one of thees for that is hearing that a lot of people feel the exact same way as you. And having those sorts of people that you can just vent to of here's how I'm feeling. Is this normal? Here's what I'm doing. Is this normal or should I be doing more? And then having someone tell you it's okay. Everyone feels like that. Don't let that freak you out. What, what these other people are doing you're doing just fine. Trust me. Here's what I did. And it works just well for me and you're already doing better, having those sorts of connections that you can really vent to and have them vent to you as well, whether it's in your class, whether they're upperclassmen who become your mentors, I think that's something that. I Ended up being very helpful to, to get to that point. However, again, in the beginning of my one L year it took a little bit for me to get to that point, having been in a class that was hybrid and commuting about an hour and still feeling like I wasn't really, it took a little bit for the culture of law school kind of come together,

Miguel Sanchez : 20:24

Part of the law school process, I think also, and this is from feedback I hear from other students, alumni, I. is building that self-confidence, As you mentioned, trust your your own process, your own way of doing things. So building that self-confidence. how did you think, how do you think being a musician helped you with that self-confidence? Do you think you were able to maybe pick it up faster because You're used to going up in front of people and performing and sometimes you're at rooms where you play, maybe you thought you, you play your best and nobody claps. Do you think that had some, in some way help you get through that process of building self-confidence in law school?

John Manna: 21:10

that wasn't necessarily something that I was always thinking about, and how those two kind of work in tandem together, but I think that certainly played a role in my overall confidence and my self-assurance in the sense that you're absolutely right. When you're a musician and or any type of artist and you are putting yourself out there, whether you're performing live, whether you're promoting songs or anything that you've written or anything that you've done there has to be a, Of not caring what people think and you have to either the easy way or the hard way develop a relatively doing pretty well, and even if your, a lot of your work seems to be you still will always have that sort of apprehension still have to build up for things like that. And I think that, again, even if I wasn't think of consciously, that if not in my ability to do the work, but also in just the way I, Conducted myself with my colleagues and wasn't really afraid generally to introduce myself to people and to smile and say good morning and things that seem small, but I think can play a big role in improving your law school experience. that certainly played a big role in in my con, in my confidence and also just having an outlet law. It's very. It. works your logical and reasonable and rational side of your brain. And then In a lot of ways, music seems to work the exact opposite of your brain. Having that sort of balance at the end of the day, when I could go home and, try to write a song or just play guitar and just as an outlet, like having that sort of balance, I think. Kept me sane and I, a lot of people have something like that for them, whether it's music or it's sports or exercise or sort of activity it helps you not get as much tunnel

Miguel Sanchez : 23:16

you were thinking about entertainment law. Did you continue that path? What changed and tell us about what you do now? I.

John Manna: 23:27

end up continuing actually that path for entertainment law That was like I said the original catalyst that made me interested in law school. And obviously your first year of law school, you take all of the core or most of the core bar classes. You don't have much say in what classes you take your first year. Your second year is the year where you start to have much more freedom. There's still some requirements, but for the most part, you have freedom in what you decide to take in law school. And I did end up seeing that entertainment Law was a class, fortunately, that Pace, that pays offered. I took that my first, second, my first two l semester, I took Entertainment Law. And I did end up finding it fairly interesting. It was, it actually is fairly musician focused class, too, which at, which at the time I did I did appreciate. However, I think I started to learn more about what entertainment law entailed and I started seeing that as easy of a process to simply, for example, apply for an entertainment law firm. It seemed like a lot of it a lot of it seemed to be more solo practitioners. It seemed like it was very competitive, especially if you wanted to, for example, go for An in-house counsel position at a record label, I ended up working my summer and went out at the Legal Aid Society of San Diego which I actually got through the Pace public interest law affair. And then I ended up really enjoying my time working for Legal Aid in San Diego that summer. I think. That was when I started feeling like more doors were opening and I started feeling okay I know I originally wanted to do entertainment law but now I actually did this other legal job that had nothing to do with entertainment and I Actually really enjoyed it and I felt like I got a lot of meaning out of this other job Into my second year of law school I was still interested and open to entertainment law But I felt like my horizons were starting to broaden and I started feeling okay this is starting to not, this is starting to feel less like something I'm doing just to see what happens. And it's starting to feel like I actually can start to build other interests in the legal field that I didn't think that I didn't to my second year of law school, I started also getting involved with the Pace Law Advocacy Program. I applied. and tried out for moot court at the time during my summer of one oh for the upcoming two L year. And I ended up fortunately getting put on the Wechsler First Amendment moot for that first fall Fortunately, I got put on a team with people that I was that I was friendly with for my first year of law school. And I ended up having a great experience with that as well. We fortunately with the help of my colleagues, we advanced to Octo finals in my first competition. So I think those sorts of experiences. Also that along with my job after my, after one L started making me feel like, okay, me. what I I was still going into the studio on weekends I was in some cases working on music videos on weekends and I would still So like a, another big thing is I didn't feel like I needed to necessarily even combine law and music at that point I was thinking like okay i'm still doing music like i'm still playing out when I can i'm still putting out music relatively regularly I'm still able to fortunately find time to go into the studio and to work on these projects. So that's not going anywhere and I'm still, and I'm still gonna be able to do that no matter what. So let's, maybe let's see what the rest of the legal field has to offer. And I started feeling like I was taking more chances and trying more in a way that I was enjoying more than I expected. And. In a way that I started getting more and more excited for as going into my third year of law school. and this is part of the reason why I think that building a network is one of the best things that you could do in law school because it'll help you with your sense of purpose and feeling like you belong But then It also comes in handy in ways you might not be thinking at first. I got my first. After law school clerking for a judge in Bergen County Superior Court for in family law, it was a one year position. I got that job from someone that I had met in law school who she had graduated a year prior to me. And she had said Hey, we have some judges in Bergen County that are looking for law clerks and This was I think this was relatively, this wasn't too late in my three L year to the point where I hadn't been really sitting down and sending out applications that, that much yet at that point. So I was very open-minded. Ended up getting an interview and I was thinking, okay I don't know exactly I could have certain options, but this sort of one year, this one year clerkship experience after law school seems like a great way to get good experience and to get my foot in the door and see if I if I like family law too and see, like, that's something I haven't really tried yet and I haven't really done very much with. In law school yet. So, it that was a good opportunity for me to start my legal career. I'd heard about the value that clerkships can offer in working with the judiciary and getting that sort of perspective on things. It seemed like to me, that was a good opportunity to start with and a good way to get some experience. And that was an opportunity that I got in very large part, just from meeting people in law school and from networking and I. very much so in helping me in helping me get my job with the clerkship after law school. And then also it helped with me the I'm at law firm in the financial district in now.

Miguel Sanchez : 29:25

Dean Anderson who is the Dean of Haub Law, he generally starts his welcome address to the incoming students, the new class each fall. I. more or less, he starts off by saying that The school, your class is also your network as you said, John, it's not just having that network in a passive way, but you have to be intentional about making those connections in law school and definitely after law school, because they will help you and you should all also be helping others along the way. And John, as we are coming to the end, I wanna ask you two last questions. after you've been through this process, If you could talk to yourself back as a incoming one L student, what would you say to yourself?

John Manna: 30:19

With this sort of question is the, I'm happy with the path That I've gone on and I'm happy with the choices that I've made. So if I was talking to myself prior to my one L year, I wouldn't really want to tell myself anything that would very much change any of the choices that I've made the good ones and the bad ones too. I've, where I've ended I'm hesitant myself make anything go differently because I'm grateful for how things have been turning out, but I think that I would wanna reassure myself that I'm on a good path for me look back now and I think wow, at the time when I decided to sign up for the LSAT at that point in my life, I never fully understood or imagined the opportunities, the experiences, the people that I would've meet, some of my best friends that I'm that I still talk to and that I will probably continue to talk to to this day and onward from law school, from jobs those sorts of experiences. I, I would wanna reassure myself that I very much advanced my personal and my professional life. In ways that I never thought possible and I wouldn't want to do anything different even the mistakes and even the maybe the classes I shouldn't have taken and even the Things like that, but I would so I wouldn't wanna tell myself anything that would change that but I would wanna make sure that I reassured myself that things were gonna work out and that and that I was in for a great worthwhile journey

Miguel Sanchez : 31:48

It does sound like your law school experience has been transformative. the last question I have, John, is you are a songwriter. If you could write a song about law school, about your law school experience? What would you title it?

John Manna: 32:05

what's funny is I have written a song. I can't say it was about. Law school in general, but I mentioned I worked for legal aid society in san diego And I was at that point in my life. I'd never been to san diego. I'd never i'd never been to that city I didn't know anyone in that city So it felt like I was taking a leap of faith like i'm gonna go do this public interest job for a summer San Diego. san diego. I don't know anyone there. What am I doing out there? I'm gonna drive there am I out of my mind? So I remember thinking like that was I'm gonna I had never even, I commuted to undergrad too. Like I never really even left my family house at that point. So it felt like I was taking a huge leap of faith. And I remember I wrote a song at that point, which actually I wrote that song in my one L year. And it's, I actually recently was in the studio recording it? so it should actually be potentially coming out sometime in 2025, hopefully. It's called 99 cent dream. And I wrote that kind of about just feeling like I was taking a step. And Feeling okay, there's no better time to just take a chance like this. And who knows what's gonna happen. Maybe it is maybe it is weird of me to be feeling like I should that things like this will work out, but I'm just gonna take this chance and see what happens. What do I have to lose? Now is the, there's not gonna be a more convenient time to get these sorts of experiences. That, that is an example of a song that I did write in part about a transformative experience that I was going through in law school.

Miguel Sanchez : 33:35

Are we looking out for it and for our listeners John, how if someone wants to listen to your work how should people connect with you, what your social media pages, websites? How would you like to point people to you?

John Manna: 33:49

It's funny in my job and everything. I go as on Spotify and Apple music and my website, Johnny manna.com, but that's J-O-H-N-N-Y-M-A-N-N-A, and that's on all the streaming services and that's my website as well. And that's also my handle on Instagram, you could also find me on Instagram by just searching John Manna as well. But if you type in either John Manna or Johnny Manna into Google, you most you.

Miguel Sanchez : 34:20

That's great. And we'll definitely add those to our show notes and we'll also have them on the screen. You will see them on the bottom of the screen as John mentioned. So John, thank you very much for spending your time with us for the rest. Be on the lookout for our next episode. Thank you for tuning in. Thanks for listening. If you enjoy the episode. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with a friend. Don't forget to leave a review. Until next time.